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**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 01:53 PM

I dont believe that anyone including myself are arguing that late in the war items were painted in a tan color, or not finished to a certain degree.

The issue as I see it is that none of these examples resemble the helmet in question.

Yes they are all "tan"......but thats it. I am not sure how you see the photos, but to my eyes the paints are not the same.

Regardless of what country the item originated from, these helmets are not the same as said examples.

I am curious if some of the bigger wigs of this hobby who frequent the boards are willing too, or are able to comment on this thread (DougO, Bill Shea etc). Thier exposure to these helmets will be far more reaching than my own due to their longevity within the hobby.

For my end.....I have contacted Kelly Hicks for his opinion, and if allowed I will post a reply here.

**90th Light** · 12-08-2014, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

I dont believe that anyone including myself are arguing that late in the war items were painted in a tan color, or not finished to a certain degree.

The issue as I see it is that none of these examples resemble the helmet in question.

Yes they are all "tan"......but thats it. I am not sure how you see the photos, but to my eyes the paints are not the same.

Regardless of what country the item originated from, these helmets are not the same as said examples.

I am curious if some of the bigger wigs of this hobby who frequent the boards are willing too, or are able to comment on this thread. Thier exposure to these helmets will be far more reaching than my own due to their longevity within the hobby.

For my end.....I have contacted Kelly Hicks for his opinion, and if allowed I will post a reply here.

The paints on the items which NickG is posting are not exactly the same. It would surprising if they were. However, the point is that all these items are within the range of acceptable shades for "RAL 7028"

The Germans were struggling to maintain consistent paint colour by 1944 from one batch of paint to next because the war was creating more and more challenges to production each day.

However, there is another reason, an Economic one. The second half of 1943 and 1944 were years that the German finally achieved Economic growth and their economy got bigger. Unbelievably the German economy actually got smaller in 1940 and 1941 as they let it return to domestic production and new technolgy. This is one of the reasons why they lost the war.

In 1943 & 1944, Speer threw every thing he had at it. They brought in resources from every corner of the Reich and their ally countries. They achieved economic growth but it was at the expense of quality and consistency. This includes paint like "RAL 7028" and thus a larger range of darker or lighter shades will be encountered than might have been.

This is an economic reality of the time and a war going on,

Chris

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-08-2014, 02:26 PM

I'm seeing lots of low quality photos to compare with other low quality photos , different shades of green , not sure where this is leading too but not to anything conclusive for me.

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-08-2014, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

All of a sudden now? Since I commenced participating in this thread my position from the start has been clear (shared with some other people) and it's that this RAL coded paint is very possibly genuine after all
and therefor applied during the war...(along with all the other original parts)

Where were they expected to fight? Really? Everywhere!
Ever heard of Churchill's speech in 1942 "the soft underbelly of the beast" .
I suggest to Google it!
A part of collecting is also learning about the history...what went on!

Nick , not just reading also understanding the reality of that time , withdrawal to Italy , Sicily , defending Krete , Greece.
That's not a whole lot of territory where you would need specially made tropical headgear.
Then considering Germany's resources to hold that territory they must have known they would have to pull back to the lush green interior of Europe soon.

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The paints on the items which NickG is posting are not exactly the same. It would surprising if they were. However, the point is that all these items are within the range of acceptable shades for "RAL 7028"

The Germans were struggling to maintain consistent paint colour by 1944 from one batch of paint to next because the war was creating more and more challenges to production each day.

However, there is another reason, an Economic one. The second half of 1943 and 1944 were years that the German finally achieved Economic growth and their economy got bigger. Unbelievably the German economy actually got smaller in 1940 and 1941 as they let it return to domestic production and new technolgy. This is one of the reasons why they lost the war.

In 1943 & 1944, Speer threw every thing he had at it. They brought in resources from every corner of the Reich and their ally countries. They achieved economic growth but it was at the expense of quality and consistency. This includes paint like "RAL 7028" and thus a larger range of darker or lighter shades will be encountered than might have been.

This is an economic reality of the time and a war going on,

Chris

Agreed......when I say "same color" that is a bad term. I should say do not appear to be of the same type.

I see different shades, hues, and textures. None of which match to the helmets being discussed.

Let me also say I am all for the possibility that for years collectors were incorrect. Certainly it wouldnt be the first time. THat being said.......these helmets I really dont see in that situation.

Dealers of the 80's were as cut throat then as they are now. With less exposure (no internet) the ease to fake helmets was far greater due to lack of materials of study. The fact that I , and I would suspect many others have not seen these ever surface as anything other than post war produced helmets of german materials speaks volumes.

You have to ask yourself why now? Why now is this helmet a sudden revelation? They are not new to the market. Many collectors who have owned them have never given them a second thought (to my knowledge). It would seem that wishful thinking is prolonging this thread.

**bubble** · 12-08-2014, 02:51 PM

I still do not understand some of the local collectors .. Here in the protectorate from 1944 was a total and huge chaos! and lack of all raw materials. German factories were bombarovány every day. The Protectorate from 1944 produced only from raw materials which were available. Who at that time interested in an exact shade of color for the SS?? LOL:_) or the exact type of shoes, uniforms etc..????

**bubble** · 12-08-2014, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Dennis J View Post

What I was told years ago was they never made it to Egypt....that's why they came out CZ because they were in a warehouse and not sent to Egypt.

Dennis J

There is only important whether they were dyed in yellow before May 1945 or after May 1945. And not where they were later sold..

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by bubble View Post

I still do not understand some of the local collectors .. Here in the protectorate from 1944 was a total and huge chaos! and lack of all raw materials. German factories were bombarovány every day. The Protectorate from 1944 produced only from raw materials which were available. Who at that time interested in an exact shade of color for the SS?? LOL:_) or the exact type of shoes, uniforms etc..????

I suppose the person would be the same depot administrator that thought these helmets needed to be made for a location that was already over run by the Allies.

Sorry not buying the whole "end of the war chaos". That is the excuse that has been used to explain fakes, or frankenstein pieces (like this helmet) since collecting began.

Are there anomollies due to shortages....yes. Was there chaos towards the end of the war........most certainly. Does that prove that these known helmets for more than 20 years are suddenly:

"Unissued, war time Tropical SS helmets"

Umm.......nope.

PS: I have a bridge in Brooklyn I could sell you....also willing to paint it tan first!

JK- all in good fun boys.

In all seriousness the helmet that was featured here:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat67_x.txt

I believe was a repaint, but not the same type of repaint as we are seeing on the helmet in question. I see brush strokes on the interior skirt, not a factory spray paint job. Just my opinion of course.

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by bubble View Post

I still do not understand some of the local collectors .. Here in the protectorate from 1944 was a total and huge chaos! and lack of all raw materials. German factories were bombarovány every day. The Protectorate from 1944 produced only from raw materials which were available. Who at that time interested in an exact shade of color for the SS?? LOL:_) or the exact type of shoes, uniforms etc..????

Hi bubble, I see you are from Prague...Great!!!
So what is the general consensus on these helmets locally? (now that there is so much more shared knowledge)
Any local web posts with viewpoints (that can be translated) on these intriguing helmets? I have at least one contact (with CZ roots) who is 100% convinced that they are war time...

I agree that debating the exact shade of color is a waist of time prolonging this thread...we want viewpoints or better: discoveries/revelations (from Prague), some fresh thoughts from
the local CZ collecting community where these originated! (and I still want to do a poll!)

**bubble** · 12-08-2014, 03:21 PM

From Czechoslovakia after the war goods exported to many countries = Latin America, Asia and Africa. There were in 1947- 48 supplied weapons to Israel and (pardoxially) to Egypt or Syria .. later to Indonesia, and hundreds of other countries..

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by bubble View Post

From Czechoslovakia after the war goods exported to many countries = Latin America, Asia and Africa. There were in 1947- 48 supplied weapons to Israel and (pardoxially) to Egypt or Syria .. later to Indonesia, and hundreds of other countries..

There you have it. "After the war goods".

Nothing indicating war time construction, or war time intent straight from the "regional source".

Close the thread.

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by bubble View Post

From Czechoslovakia after the war goods exported to many countries = Latin America, Asia and Africa. There were in 1947- 48 supplied weapons to Israel and (pardoxially) to Egypt or Syria .. later to Indonesia, and hundreds of other countries..

Agreed! Who didn't?...many countries were rebuilding their armies post WW2, others creating armies post de-colonization, independence (Indonesia)...
but specifically, THESE helmets...None have turned up in foreign army inventories as far as I know...and 100% use of German parts (and paint?)

No specific info on these? On a French forum thread somebody claimed these were destined for Ethiopia...but never sent...and that's fine..
Lots of war time left-overs ended up overseas...MG34's in the Israeli Army etc... but were these made specifically for an export order post war or war time made for German use,
but the majority never leaving the warehouse(s)?
That's the question... seeking view points from your country specifically, based on internet findings... Perhaps period images from CZ? Again opinions can change...Getting to the bottom of this with conclusive info is the topic of this thread! (if we can)! It's been an interesting journey so far with back and forth opinions/arguments, but nothing conclusive, no real smoking gun...but lots of dots that do connect and make a case (that there was a need for such helmets in WW2) but still a weak one thus far!
(and tons of readers based on the count! so plenty of interest to solve this puzzle once and forever... )

**bubble** · 12-08-2014, 04:36 PM

http://www.valka.cz/clanek_14069.html Vývoz zbraní z Československa do kapitalistické ciziny (1950–1960) Arms exports from Czechoslovakia to capitalist countries 1950 -1960
http://www.valka.cz/clanek_14221.html Vývoz zbraní z Československa do kapitalistické ciziny (1960–1970) Arms exports from Czechoslovakia to capitalist countries 1960–1970

http://forum.valka.cz/profil.php/u/9741
Československo a jeho vojenská pomoc státu Izrael v prvním období jeho samostatné existence (I.-X.)

http://www.vhu.cz/padesata-leta-co-d...tori-v-egypte/

etc, etc..

**anmarlodz** · 12-08-2014, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

There you have it. "After the war goods".

Nothing indicating war time construction, or war time intent straight from the "regional source".

Close the thread.

As far as I understand our Czech member said : the many items also with wartime origin ( weapons and other military related stuff ) were exported to other countries.
You seems to undestand word of our Czech member as ; many postwar made items were exported to other countries ( meaning that those helmets were postwar made ).

I suspecting our friend wanted to write " after the war ( ended ), goods (were) exported to many countries ". A 'coma' in right place can completely change meaning of sentence.

**bubble** · 12-08-2014, 04:52 PM

I do not know definitely.. these helmets were in my opinion, painted in yellow color before the May 1945.

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