Announcement

**NickG** · 12-06-2014, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by TomPearson View Post

I would like to see these in person, but these are not something I would have
in my helmet collection.

Tom

Again another non-believer who is not able whatsover to eloquently explain and elaborate on the EXACT reason WHY it is not something he would want to consider owning...

The Czech collectors know better (helmets not tainted by canceled Egyptian export hearsay fable that was floating around predominently in the States among collector circles with no open mind...field gray, hand camo overpaint or bad...) and I am a subscriber of their beliefs!

Please feel free to point out what does not look correct here? (just the period non convential German Ordnance tan color???)
or is it the Egyptian draw strings...???No wait, shocker alert! They are period German! Can't be possible!!!

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-07-2014, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

However, what we do know is that there was an SS depot in that part of the CZ that was issuing uniforms to SS soldiers going to tropical fronts.

We also know that large quantities of SS unforms, Pith helmets, web belts and other items have been found in that part of the CZ.

I can not help but wonder if the SS also had a stock of steel helmets for tropical issue from that CZ depot and what those helmets looked like.

Chris

What we know is that there were various warehouses (LW, SS) and tropical kit was abundant, as Czech resistance emptied these at war's end...
(based on photographic proof that I posted...)

Post war: Czech Police was wearing German tropical uniforms and tropical SS field caps without insignia, shortly after the war ended...
So plenty of unissued stocks at their disposal still... (and Italian camo parkas etc...)

War time: What was left of the downsized Czechoslavakian army (Slovakia broke away) became known as the "Protectorate Army" (Czech) which served primarily on guard duty around the Protectorate. In 1944 they were called upon to serve in Italy in a non-combatant function, deployed as laborers (with OT troops) helping to build fortifications, machine gun strong points and such at the German defenses, like the famous Gothic line....

When they left Prague for Italy (most of the Protectorate army got deployed there, wearing Czech helmets for those who may wonder) they needed tropical kit and drew certain supplies from German stores...
Note German tropical shirt. You can see the loops for German shoulderstraps, but instead Czech simple straps were added, an adoptation, otherwise these straps would have been incorporated in the shirt design, if Czech...non-removable, now added...German shirt made in CZ territory.
It is again circumstancial and LW pattern, not SS sahariana...but yet another clue that German tropical gear was made/modified and stockpiled there...

Had these DunkelGelb German helmets not been found in the Prague area, but elsewhere, we would not have been having this conversation, linking these to German production and storage In the Protectorate, but we can't change the facts on this...Circumstantial? Big coincidence? Or linkage to a war time genuine product? We can all draw our own conclusions. .I don't hang out much in this section of WAF. Now the hunt starts for finding such a time capsule helmet with a "fake" price hopefully. Maybe I have changed some minds or at least put some doubt in the Egyptian story. Thanks for listening to my pov... done !

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-07-2014, 01:31 AM

BTW for those who might have missed it...yellow (image of CZ soldier in Italy 1944 with modified LW shirt).

Attached Files

20141128_194846[1].jpg (40.2 KB, 293 views)

**NARVIK1940** · 12-07-2014, 01:58 AM

Fascinating topic. Is that color picture of the soldier wearing the tan helmet period? It looks quite convincing. I have learned to keep an open mind and not listen too much to "conventional" wisdom when it comes to unusual variants. I also find the Egyptian army theory to be a lazy explanation not supported by diligent research.

**bigschuss** · 12-07-2014, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Again another non-believer who is not able whatsover to eloquently explain and elaborate on the EXACT reason WHY it is not something he would want to consider owning...

Nick…you are certainly passionate about this. I think you've doubled your post count in just this thread alone.

I'm with Scott….I always try to keep an open mind. You've done a good job elucidating your position that these are indeed period refurbed helmets. I never believed in these. But this thread has given me some new insight and provided me with a new way of thinking about these.

But I still would't own one. So, lest I'm accused of being a non-believer, allow me to eloquently explain why. They are boring. Army surplus. Sold in bulk in the 90's. Unissued…no history…sat on a shelf…boring. I just don't collect anything like this. They have as much appeal to me as unissued German soldier's butter dish. Just my opinion. Even if 100% real, I'll pass.

Great discussion!

**PAB** · 12-07-2014, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by NARVIK1940 View Post

Fascinating topic. Is that color picture of the soldier wearing the tan helmet period? It looks quite convincing. I have learned to keep an open mind and not listen too much to "conventional" wisdom when it comes to unusual variants. I also find the Egyptian army theory to be a lazy explanation not supported by diligent research.

While thats true, there was a very good article on these as mentioned on German-Helmets.com. A Q&A with Bill Maertz, but due to copyright/credit issues it was pulled. The interesting point in that article is the type of paint used, an epoxy paint, post ww2 type. It was a very informative account.

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-07-2014, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"These are DunkelGelb RAL color professionally (factory) painted (period) helmets...A totaly different scenario! dis-similar!
Look again at the images of these (period) refurbished helmets...intended for Sudfront use with official Ordnance paint on them!"

I am not against the idea of these being late war unisued items, but this does not justify the use of flawed logic. In this case I do not understand why no full yellow helmets were produced in the 1940-43 DAK period, and all of a sudden when the war is winding down they decide to produce yellow helmets for a supposed Russian Südfront? Possible... yes. Obvious and logical... no.

JL

Well said and I agree. In the b&w picture shown it could just be a tan painted regular helmet.

I like debates and as a helmet nut I like to keep an open mind but I see nothing to convince me these are wartime painted shells , furthermore all combat models even the few late war QVL's we have seen have textured paint , the tan ones have a thin coat of flat paint.

Egyptian army or not it would perhaps be convenient for some if these would suddenly be called late war SS helmets

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-07-2014, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Agreed and H & C apparently also liked these, as they used them for their (mostly SS) impressions. They figured it out a long time ago!

Using impressions as proof , I don't get it and frankly don't help to make your case Nick. It's confusing for people who don't read the topic thoroughly and think the color photos are wartime soldiers.

I do know one of the H&C models made a book on camo helmets recently that's filled with fakes. Normandy 1944 it is called.
So as such H&C is not a resource but more of a liability in your reasoning.

**kapitein** · 12-07-2014, 01:08 PM

Interesting topic, seeing these re-conditioned helmets, factory fresh using all ww2 parts and paints and knowing for fact that huge stocks of tropical or sud front gear was found in CZ after the war I do believe that these are ww2 ere put togethor re-serviced helmets for sud front combat duty. Why not?
The funeral pictures show simular helmets in use.
I tend to believe that this is a much more credible story than the less crediible and not proven Egyptian link. (put togethor after 45 for export use...)
If you want an affordable all ww2 spec German helmet fresh from the factory these are for you. If they will become popular is ofcourse debatable as they have no battle history. A Normandy camo or DAK helmet will always be more collected.
My 2 pennies....
(So offer me one for the Egyptian use price plse!

)
Kapitein

**Jos L C** · 12-07-2014, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by PAB View Post

The interesting point in that article is the type of paint used, an epoxy paint, post ww2 type. It was a very informative account.

Interesting indeed ..

Jos.

**90th Light** · 12-07-2014, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by PAB View Post

While thats true, there was a very good article on these as mentioned on German-Helmets.com. A Q&A with Bill Maertz, but due to copyright/credit issues it was pulled. The interesting point in that article is the type of paint used, an epoxy paint, post ww2 type. It was a very informative account.

I do not know how or when this epoxy paint theory came into existance. However it is not correct. We took an intact helmet shell out here and had the paint tested. The shell turned up on its own because someone had removed the liner, pins and chin strap.

The paint is not an epoxy. To keep a long story short, basically it is a primer paint designed to have other paint applied over it. This type of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" paint was definitely in existance in the 1940's and for a period there after. Because it is a primer base, it absorbs moisure over time and begins to rust faster when exposed to the elements and not painted over. The scientist testing the paint speculated that they may have restorted to using this paint later in the war due to shortages of other paints. This is a paint that the Germans were still capable of producing later in WW2 and did not need certain ingredients in the mix that may have been in short supply. One could even argue a case that it is an ersatz product but originally it was probably developed as a primer for metal in the 1930's or before.

The very interesting thing about this thread, is the number of times NickG has done a great job on matching this shade of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" up with other 101% German war time items painted that colour. Another interesting point is that these items are not repaints. This shade of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" is the original factory applied base colour on later German equipment/ vehicles.

When I get time, I also have an interesting hands on comparison to add images of to this thread. Other demands and time do not permit this at the present time but I will have time soon.

An interesting conclusion from the testing, the use of this primer type paint offers a very high level of matt effect reducing any reflection property of the paint after it has dried.

To sum up, the epoxy theory is right up there with the Eygptian theory. Who came up with it based on what, where and when ???

If anyone can add a copy of this "Q&A with Bill Maertz" article it would be very interesting to see what is its basis. May be it was pulled not because of copyright but more for reasons of being inaccurate and misleading,

Chris

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-07-2014, 03:39 PM

This is an interesting topic.....but I have a few questions that I have not seen addressed to this point directly.

1. I have yet to see in person, or in a respected publication any tropical helmet from any branch that is made up the same way as these helmets. One would think that at some point evidence of thier use would have surfaced by now?

2. Where is the published factual proof that these helmets actually came from an SS depot? Thus far from what I am reading it's "suspected" that they originated from and SS depot in Chk, which is no more credible than the Egyptian story line.

3. Of the very few tropical SS helmets in collections that have been published each one of them have undoubtedly demonstrate the traditional camouflage paint techniques as seen on every other branch....(interior helmet original color field grey, decals most often always present). Why should these be different?

I agree that the photos are interesting in the sense that they illustrate SS men wearing the helmets with no runes, however it doesn't prove that these are factory painted helmets, nor that the interior is painted in tropical paint either.

I have had a couple of these helmets over the years and I can honestly say regardless of being of German parts, they never felt like wartime to me. There is something about the paint that makes you see a post war fabrication as opposed to true war time paint.

I respect the recollections of the vet, however memories change as we get older, so showing him a German parted helmet that is tan in color.....I seriously doubt he would know the difference between a period piece, and these ones.

IMO.

**NARVIK1940** · 12-07-2014, 05:31 PM

My new DAK helmets

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

I do not know how or when this epoxy paint theory came into existance. However it is not correct. We took an intact helmet shell out here and had the paint tested. The shell turned up on its own because someone had removed the liner, pins and chin strap.

The paint is not an epoxy. To keep a long story short, basically it is a primer paint designed to have other paint applied over it. This type of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" paint was definitely in existance in the 1940's and for a period there after. Because it is a primer base, it absorbs moisure over time and begins to rust faster when exposed to the elements and not painted over. The scientist testing the paint speculated that they may have restorted to using this paint later in the war due to shortages of other paints. This is a paint that the Germans were still capable of producing later in WW2 and did not need certain ingredients in the mix that may have been in short supply. One could even argue a case that it is an ersatz product but originally it was probably developed as a primer for metal in the 1930's or before.

The very interesting thing about this thread, is the number of times NickG has done a great job on matching this shade of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" up with other 101% German war time items painted that colour. Another interesting point is that these items are not repaints. This shade of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" is the original factory applied base colour on later German equipment/ vehicles.

When I get time, I also have an interesting hands on comparison to add images of to this thread. Other demands and time do not permit this at the present time but I will have time soon.

An interesting conclusion from the testing, the use of this primer type paint offers a very high level of matt effect reducing any reflection property of the paint after it has dried.

To sum up, the epoxy theory is right up there with the Eygptian theory. Who came up with it based on what, where and when ???

If anyone can add a copy of this "Q&A with Bill Maertz" article it would be very interesting to see what is its basis. May be it was pulled not because of copyright but more for reasons of being inaccurate and misleading,

Chris

Very interesting. It is nice to know that someone is taking a sober and critical look at these. It is easy to go with the flow and not challenge conventional wisdom. I should say that there seems to be some support for the hypothesis that these helmets could have been produced during the war.

**Jos L C** · 12-07-2014, 09:23 PM

Yes, but, .. I think Mr.Hollywood has some questions and nobody answers ..

The photo album pics don't tell anything, the magazine pics don't tell anything, the paint needs a long story to explain, it seems to be a primer, while all similar colored stuff is paint, who says they come from a ss depot etc..
Also, since when did Germany make factory camo helmets .., where's the gasmask canister in this color ?

Jos.

**NickG** · 12-07-2014, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The paint is not an epoxy. To keep a long story short, basically it is a primer paint designed to have other paint applied over it. This type of "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" paint was definitely in existance in the 1940's and for a period there after. Because it is a primer base, it absorbs moisure over time and begins to rust faster when exposed to the elements and not painted over.
Chris

Fun debate! I am back...
Indeed this paint was prone to rust (bottom of the pile helmets suffered the most while in storage...)

Attached Files

Announcement

My new DAK helmets

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread