red waffenfarbe on black pz uniforms ?

[derka]

hello,

i would like to know your opinion about the use of red waffenfarbe on black panzer uniforms, and particulary on colar tabs with "tk" mounted on wraps.

this point is not clear to me, and study of period pictures is difficult and quite confusing.

in the early war, until introduction of the special feldgrau sp uniform, it seems that the black unifor was used by personnels of sp artillery :



was the red waffenfarbe used at this time, or pink because of their attachment to armored units ? i don't believe it.

from 1941 to the end of the conflict, personnels of sp artillery used mostly feldgrau uniforms, and i would say with red waffenfarbe :





a mixt of black and feldgrau uniforms in a same unit can sometimes be observed, due to lacks, reorganizations or transferts of men beetween units.
but what about the waffenfarbe personnels of beobachtung panzer, attached to artillery units ? (i think pink).
and for the technical personnels like this oberwerk-meister ? (i think pink).



and at least, what was the color of the waffenfarbe of special assault artillery units, normaly independants ? (i think pink too).



until now, i'm quite sure that the folowing colors of waffenwarbe were used on black pz uniforms AND on colar tabs with "tk" :
- rosa/pink : armored troops (large variety)
- goldgelb/gold yellow : cavalry/reco troops
- zitronengelb/lemon yellow : signals units
- schwarzweiss/black and white : armoured engineers compagnies
- kupferbraun/copper brown : reco motorized and motorcycles units (41/43)

i believe that for waffen specialists, red waffenfarbe with normal shoulderboards and colar insignias were worn on black uniforms, but no colar tabs with "tk" and red waffenfarbe.

but as we always have something to learn, i would be pleased to read yours opinions on this subject, or to see maybe period pictures for illustration of yours points of wiew.

derka

PS forgive please my poor english, like lots of frenchies...

[Mike Davis]

Firstly, your English is superb! Much better than my ghastly French.

My opinion about your question is that, yes, red-piped panzer tabs were worn.

Over the years, I have seen several removed red-piped panzer skull tabs that I believed original and owned the example attached to a piece of collar posted here. (I don't know where it is now and trust the current owner doesn't mind me posting the image.)

I also own now an HBT wrap with red-piped skull tabs that I believe original to the jacket.

It will be interesting to read the comments of others.

[derka]

thanks for your answer, Mike.

despite the fact that i never had one exemple of red piping black colar tab in hands (contrary to the 5 others colors i listed), wich of course prove absolutely nothing,
i agree whitout dificulties that logicaly, red waffenfarbe mounted on black uniforms shoud have been worn.

for exemple, if we observe those wellknwown pictures of RKT oberleutnant Ludwig and his crew in normandy in july 44, who belonged to a stug brigade,
and that we admit that for a question of coherence, all men have the same color of waffenfarbe, wich was normaly red,
then the man on his right should wear black colar tabs with "tk" and red piping.



so, my questions shoud be more precise :
which type of units could have this kind of combination of insignias;
among those i mentioned, like sp armored artillery observation units, or technical personnels, or "brummbar" or "sturmtiger" units ?
or like flak sp armored units attached to pz-div ? :



or others units i forget ?
and wich date of introduction for the red waffenfarbe in such conditions ?
did early models of black pz wrap with red piping around the colar ever existed ?

well, lots of stimulating questions for who is interested...

derka

[Richard P]

Derka,

I only found this thread because you linked to it in another post. I believe I can answer your question. Yes...they did have early dated (1936) black wraps with red piped collars. Here is one that was heavily worn and extremely dirty when I received it. It took me almost two months to get it reasonably clean. I also have some photos of a stug unit with black wraps and no skulls on some of their collars....but I can't locate them at the moment.

[Richard P]

2.

[Richard P]

3. Before cleaning...

[Richard P]

4.

[Richard P]

5. Another before cleaning.

[Richard P]

6. Original photo red piped wrapper, no skulls, credit on photo.

[Richard P]

7. Original photo, credit on photo.

[derka]

thanks Richard,
what an astonishing wrapper !
and period pics are clear, red piping hypothesis is probably correct.
derka

[Panzer Rob]

Richard-

Beautiful wrap, and I really love those portraits you've posted.


Derka, this is a very interesting thread you've started. I have a very strong interest in this subject and can tell you that you are correct in your assessment of waffenfarbe combos listed below:

until now, i'm quite sure that the folowing colors of waffenwarbe were used on black pz uniforms AND on colar tabs with "tk" :
- rosa/pink : armored troops (large variety)
- goldgelb/gold yellow : cavalry/reco troops
- zitronengelb/lemon yellow : signals units
- schwarzweiss/black and white : armoured engineers compagnies
- kupferbraun/copper brown : reco motorized and motorcycles units (41/43)

i believe that for waffen specialists, red waffenfarbe with normal shoulderboards and colar insignias were worn on black uniforms, but no colar tabs with "tk" and red waffenfarbe.

By Waffen specialists, are you referring to Sturmpanzer IV and Sturmtiger crews? I believe I have seen photos of Sturmtiger crews wearing black wraps with what appears to be red piped collar tabs and should straps, but I will have to double check.


Regarding the metal totenkopf insignia on collar tabs; even though regulation required all non-Panzer crews to remove them, photographic evidence exists that proves beyond doubt that some StuG, Panzerjäger, Panzer Artillery, Pz.Pio. and Aufklärungs-Abteilung personnel continued to wear them through wars end.

You can find a very interesting mix of collar tabs being worn by various AFV personnel... pink piped black shoulder straps and collar tabs with totenkopf insignia on field gray wraps worn by Panzerjäger personnel being one of my favorites!


Rob

[derka]

Rob,

by waffen specialist, i mean those who are not crew members, but who serves in Werkstattkompanie for instance, and sometimes being not member of Feldheer as real military personnal.
for instance, Waffen-Offiziere wore red piping with 2 crossed cannons and standart offiziere colar tabs on black pz suit when serving in armored units, or Beamte pesonnal wore their special shoulder boards, sometimes without colar insignias, sometimes with piped colar tabs, with tks, with standart litzen...
and of course, on black or green wraps.
derka

[Grenadier45]

interesting and understudied subject, here is my red piped cutoff. I have been under the assumption these were worn by some panzerartillerie units that retained the black wrapper. Is the consensus here that this type of insignia was worn by ordnance technicians attached to panzer units?

[derka]

interesting and understudied subject, here is my red piped cutoff. I have been under the assumption these were worn by some panzerartillerie units that retained the black wrapper. Is the consensus here that this type of insignia was worn by ordnance technicians attached to panzer units?

IMHO, it is not specific to ordnance technicians, but to panzerartilley units in wich there waere those specialist, but there were some too in all support units for armored Rgt or Abt levels, with proper waffenfarbe.
for instance, the oberwerk-meister's pic shown previously in a Tiger I certainly wore pink piped colar tabs.
derka