HG Panzer Sidecap

[djpool]

Hey Chris,

I can't agree with you more. I certainly respect your passion for the hobby. You are a true collector IMHO. There are some collectors who own lots of nice stuff but don't go beyond the "owning stage". They invest nothing except money.Then there are folks like you, Willi, Ben, Glenn and many more that try to look beyond the actual item, to study it, analyze it and truly appreciate it. But different experiences result in different outputs. Willi through his experience seems to gravitate more towards the textbook. Hes like a surgeon cutting out cancer and sometimes good tissue gets sacrificed, but in the end the body is saved. At times in my collecting experience I stayed textbook; it kept me from getting cheated; but I also see some items adorning books that I passed on because at the time they weren't considered textbook. It just shows that the hobby continues to grow and as long as there are folks out there with passion and a thirst for truth it can only get better. I never would have believed that so much could be said about butter dishes, canteens etc. But yet on the equipment forum there are very long and interesting threads on these items. Maybe with the prices these days that ain't a bad thing. At least everyone can participate then.

Jim

Hello Jim,

I not just picking on Willi who I find does look at things from both sides of the coin. My comment is aimed at a broader cross-section of collectors.

My point in a nut-shell is that we are trustees for a slice of history and if we are all so easily prepared to put some real history in the rubbish bin just because it is a little different from the known expected norm then God help history.

I think we all need to slow down in making a conclusion and spend a little more time on our analysis and investigations. Lets say "this one desrves more research" instead of "not for my collection".

Sure the fakes are out there and they are getting better but lets not fail to see the wood for the trees. This is all I have ever asked, a full and proper consideration of all indicators before a conclusive comment is past.

In other words a little more consideration of the implications before giving a cap like Ben's the kiss of death and making it very hard for him to be able to sell at any price. After all many who comment so quickly and so freely have no personal stake and nothing to lose by the quick, off the cuff judgements they make yet the impact is often fatal. A little more thought, a little more time and whole lot more research plus explaination of reasoning is called for.

Good to see you posting Jim and please keep up that detailed research that you seem to have such a passion for.

Much appreciated, Chris

p.s. Hello too Ramjet and what an interesting account regarding your hat. Just think in 70 years time some collector will change the buttons over claiming a dealer must have done it. Many thanks

[BenVK]

Thanks to all for the continued interesting input.

I've got some time of my hands so I took more photos of the cap plus there's nothing to loose now because it's already been written off.

The thing I love about the really salty cloth items like this cap is that they can tell you so much if you just sit down for a minute and study them.

As I understand it, the lining and the staining is giving people cause for concern so let's look at it again. Leaving the stamps out of this study for now, all of them.

Ironicaly, one of the main reasons I bought the cap was because I recognised a few things about the lining that I'd seen before in authentic caps.

It's obvious to everyone that the cap has been heavily worn both inside and out. I think the thing that's throwing people off is that they haven't considered the fact that the cap has, without doubt, been washed, probably more than few times to get rid of the grease and grime that was stuck to the lining. Human sweat and grime can stain cloth, we all know that. It bleaches out the colour, especially in naturaly dyed fabrics.

That's what we see here. If it hadn't been washed, you would still see that sticky caked in grime on the lining. Notice how it's concentrated around the areas where the cap would be touching your head and hair.

[BenVK]

As a comparison, look at the lining of this Luftwaffe sidecap that hasn't been washed. See how it's bleaching the colour out of the lining beneath and around the grime?

[BenVK]

Here's another detail I like.

The staining occures on the high points of the lining, i.e. where your head is touching and not in the folds and channels where the sewing is except in a few areas where the grime would be very concentrated.

Have a think about how you would fake this if you had to? It wouldn't be easy.

[BenVK]

Some more general details of the cap.

Bare in mind, these are macro photos and make everything look excentuated. As Glenn mentioned the wear looks "overdone" but that's the effect of the photography. In hand, it doesn't stand out like this, it's quite subtle and natural.

[BenVK]

Last one for now.

Let's say it's a fake for a minute. It would be the best fake I've ever seen because they even added debris and dust deep in the folds to be extra convincing.

[BenVK]

Ooops, forgot this one.

Brownish stain in the top of the cap. Looks very much like old blood stains I've seen in other caps that have been washed. Was the guy continiously hitting his head against something (like me in this thread! ) and that might explain the damage to the top of the cap?

To fake something in is amount of extreme detail would be something I've never experienced before so if it is fake, I'm really worried.

[BenVK]

Hmm....disappointing

[Kelly w]

SIr Ben, will you be selling it?

thanks
Kelly

[billbert]

Sometimes the silence is deafening...Billbert

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Ben

Great thread and discussion you have going here. While i can not make any helpful comments except i like the wear, i have learned alot from You and this thread in general. This forum can be frustrating at times when we are seeking help and no-one is willing to do so....

Wish i could have even just a little discussion on my thread about the fabled four line Clemens Wagner stamp which has been denied by many, yet is proven beyond any doubt its good on those CW tropenhelms...

As Billbert has said "Sometimes the silence is deafening"

cheers
Tim

[Bond]

Hi Ben, I posted that I liked this cap and I still do, for what my opinion is worth -maybe not a lot on this- and I understand how frustrating these forums can be when the questions remain unanswered. I think that maybe most people who had an opinion have stated it already.

Jerry

[BenVK]

Thanks guys.

I was hoping someone would pick up on the fact that some Army Pz caps were cut in the same style. How much do we know about these? I'm pretty sure the collectors guild had one in this style for sale not too long ago. Anyone here buy it?

I found some pics. Some are Officers caps so they don't really fit because they may or not have been bought privately but here's one issued cap at least.

[djpool]

Ben nice pictures. I was not aware that the Army used this style of cap. could certainly explain the depot stamp. I'd certainly like to know more.Jim

Thanks guys.

I was hoping someone would pick up on the fact that some Army Pz caps were cut in the same style. How much do we know about these? I'm pretty sure the collectors guild had one in this style for sale not too long ago. Anyone here buy it?

I found some pics. Some are Officers caps so they don't really fit because they may or not have been bought privately but here's one issued cap at least.

[Richard P]

Thanks guys.

I was hoping someone would pick up on the fact that some Army Pz caps were cut in the same style. How much do we know about these? I'm pretty sure the collectors guild had one in this style for sale not too long ago. Anyone here buy it?

I found some pics. Some are Officers caps so they don't really fit because they may or not have been bought privately but here's one issued cap at least.

I have seen several Heer panzer caps in the Luftwaffe/SS cut that I felt were original. I have not purchased any as I knew they would do nothing but attract the villagers with their torches and pitchforks. That could be one explanation.

Richard