SS Panzer NCO Cap

[NTZ]

I agree, Doug's is the real deal!!!

[Alan63]

Many Thanks

A special thanks to Ben for all his help,i very much appreciate it and to the other members for their contribution.The hat has many positive things going for it but the area of the pasteboard has raised some concerns.
I wonder if there are any other hats out there especially early ones that the members may have come across untreated pasteboards.I also wonder is there any hats out there with similiar linings.
Many thanks
Alan

[John Pic]

What bothers me is all the banter and no substance. You have a perfectly made hat that goes beyond the Janke genre with even the tailor marks. But the only thing anyone can say is "not for my collection".
This means nothing and if by chance that cap is real you have pissed all over it. It doesnt matter if something is made to YOUR taste or liking because it wasnt made for you.What matters is was it made during that period in time and if it was it is still a highly valuable collectible despite your personal tastes in the way it was made.
On the other hand if its a fake then it was done correctly and this should cause concern and an attempt to find out who and when.This is important because the dealer has sold many many mint condition unissued items some said to have come out of old tailor shops after the cold war.This may be true or maybe he hired a really good old seamstress and milinary worker that did this 65 years ago and remembers how.For the caps sake its important because it would blast any theories of late war color piping.

[NTZ]

I for one can certainly NOT say the cap is bad from photos. I can say however that those type of linings (the weave and color), the dull finish visors and a pebbled leather sweatbands have certainly showed up in a lot of post war visors. So the only thing I can say is it is not a one looker for me and that is about as far as that goes.

[BenVK]

I looked at this hat again today but haven't much else to add unfortunately. There isn't anything that can positively identify it as real or fake from what I've discovered. Also, I've yet to handle another cap, good or bad, that has the same configuration of lining, s/band, p/board etc either so I have nothing to compare it to.
This is a key point for me when it comes to collecting the really rare stuff.
My own SS Pz visor is made by HPC. I have 2 other HPC visors in my collection at present so it was quite an easy task to compare the construction methods and materials. It passed these tests easily so that cuts out a large percentage of doubt that always comes with a piped ss cap.
Another doubt reducing factor is condition. It's very, very difficult to deduce the age of something that's mint. Mine is worn and faded in all the right places so that's another major plus as far as I'm concerned.
For me, that's what collecting these rare things is all about, reducing the risk. You'll never eliminate it and a leap of faith is always required but that's the fun part isn't it!
Without any further information, Alan's cap would be a leap of faith too far for me at present. Whoever made it was very skilled and knowledgeable, that's for sure though.

[John Pic]

Ben your post speaks volumes because you actually handled it. I have had tunics in hand from the same dealer that were absolutely mint unworn no signs of any wear just slight if any at all.

My experiences with uniforms was such that when I found tunics in the U.S.that had been stored in collections or brought back by GIs that age and worn areas you see on your other cap was always there.Two tunics I got from Winkler were like brand new,I had rarely ever seen anything so mint before. But yet everything was perfect and original to the period.I am baffled by this myself and when I had the tunics alot of people questioned them and said "not for me" but as soon as I offered them for sale they were snatched up and never seen again.

[PMan]

Mentioned critera

I for one can certainly NOT say the cap is bad from photos. I can say however that those type of linings (the weave and color), the dull finish visors and a pebbled leather sweatbands have certainly showed up in a lot of post war visors. So the only thing I can say is it is not a one looker for me and that is about as far as that goes.

Hi Nick,
I have been following this thread with great interest. I must agree, that your earlier comments about SS panzer hats rings true to me as well. There are many that have appeared over the last 10 years..how can that be? I am sure there are good ones somewhere in the mix. Not too many for sure. Your other comments about pebbled sweatbands, dull finish visors and gray linings in waffen SS hats has me a little concerned however. I happened to run across a picture credited to Bill Shea that is in Gary Wilkins book on Third Reich Headgear, page 69. Perhaps you can comment on the brown pebbled sweat band and gray lining. We commonly refer to these unmarked examples as "issue hats". At least that's what they are called in Chicago.
Regards, Peter Manzie

[NTZ]

Peter the Shea one is right as rain. It is a true Kleiderkasse visor. I don’t mean that the pebbled leather was never used during the period just that it is not seen too often. So when I looked at the lining, visor and sweatband together it gave me more of a post war vibe. Look at the color , sheen and weave on the Shea lining. That screams period. I can't say the same for the subject cap.

[PMan]

Pebbled leather

Peter the Shea one is right as rain. It is a true Kleiderkasse visor. I don’t mean that the pebbled leather was never used during the period just that it is not seen too often. So when I looked at the lining, visor and sweatband together it gave me more of a post war vibe. Look at the color , sheen and weave on the Shea lining. That screams period. I can't say the same for the subject cap.

OK Nick, It's just that I've been getting a vibe from this thread that pebbled leather sweat bands, gray linings and dull visors are "a problem". Thanks for clearing that up.
Peter

[BenVK]

I studied this photo in the Wilkins book as a guide. I would say that the pebbled s/band is a match with Alan's cap but the lining isn't.
The finish on the underside of the peak isn't an important factor IMO.

[NTZ]

OK Nick, It's just that I've been getting a vibe from this thread that pebbled leather sweat bands, gray linings and dull visors are "a problem". Thanks for clearing that up.
Peter

Not really a problem but just things that I have seen that are common in early post war visors. As I said before I can not conclude the cap is bad by any stretch. I do have a bad vibe though.

One more thing I just thought about on the subject cap. It is not maker marked. If it were on officers I would just say it’s a kleiderkasse. But being an EM/NCO I would expect a straight private purchase with maker’s marks or a contract cap. I am not so sure the kleiderkasse allowed lower ranks to buy through the same channels as officers did. This is the first EM/NCO SS I have ever seen that was in the “officers kleiderkasse” style (I take that back. I did see one I thought was but a better look seemed to indicate it might have has a marking at one time).

[NTZ]

I hope the owner of this gem doesn’t mind but here is a EM/NCO that appears to be a contract cap but with a gray lining. I have looked at this one in hand and it is completely untouched and right as rain.

[Koguryo9]

The finish on the underside of the peak isn't an important factor IMO.

Hi Ben, what do you mean by "the underside of the peak"?

[PMan]

Early Post War Visors

Not really a problem but just things that I have seen that are common in early post war visors. As I said before I can not conclude the cap is bad by any stretch. I do have a bad vibe though.

One more thing I just thought about on the subject cap. It is not maker marked. If it were on officers I would just say it’s a kleiderkasse. But being an EM/NCO I would expect a straight private purchase with maker’s marks or a contract cap. I am not so sure the kleiderkasse allowed lower ranks to buy through the same channels as officers did. This is the first EM/NCO SS I have ever seen that was in the “officers kleiderkasse” style (I take that back. I did see one I thought was but a better look seemed to indicate it might have has a marking at one time).

Nick,
Can you explain what an "early post war" visor is that you just referred to? I know the term sounds intuitive, but...please humor me.
Peter

[NTZ]

Nick,
Can you explain what an "early post war" visor is that you just referred to? I know the term sounds intuitive, but...please humor me.
Peter

Yes, the name Dr Breuer (Alteste) comes to mind as one. His early stuff (1950's) were made of 90% period parts and materials. Most did not have the Alteste logo we all know and love. They used real cello sheilds, real visors, period materials, etc. In fact Breuer bought out the remaining stock from the defunct August Muller Co. Now I have seen other older fakes that were not made by him but similar. I would venture to say they were made around the same time. I am pretty certain he was not the only one making visors early on.