3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[Matthew]

Hermann Historica is not the demand, it is supply. People like me is the demand.
No matter what the reason is, combat decorations are in much greater demand- that is a fact. Reason that what you see on HH is a plethora of both military and non military decorations is very simple- it is not an outfit that will auction off 500 GAB's in separate lots. They aim higher than that. Whether they fail or succeed is another story.
No, asking you what you brought to this discussion is not a joke. You brought exactly zero. Nothing. Few accusations backed by zero facts. Your personal 'I don't like it'. That's it.
Not wanting to share is one thing but opening your mouth on the subject, then say 'sorry, can't tell you' means only one thing- lack of knowledge masked by 'years and millions spend on research'.
Awards made by the same die is not a complex issue at all. They either are or are not. What you do instead of straight answer is called dancing around the question.
To answer your question- yes, I would buy a non magnetic cored RK (if I was collecting crosses) if the details compared favorably with known originals. Same with LGAB in tombak, GPB in silver and anything else I could get my hands on.
Staying on the safe side is not coming onto WWW and start telling others their stuff is fake. Staying safe is not buying those wares yourself.
Regarding the burned cross from Barry. Yes, a miracle. Wanna see another? Stick a piece of glass in your fireplace. See if it melts, Genius.

[chen]

Our Policies:
1. Avoid Banned members.
2. Be careful to those not pay $25 bucks to hide the identity.
3. 1+2.

[Chris Obermeyer]

The Hermann Historica can also be seen as a thermometer of the collecting and I say what I see.

It's painfully obvious that your comments about my participation in this topic is “zero”. You are the one that didn't bring absolutely nothing about the award in question. My thesis is firm and well-reasoned and researched. Yours ridiculous challenges were above anything useless. A total waste of time.

Don´t waste your time, I know this game you are playing and be asured that I will never give again any direct answer about the German Order and it is my right to do so. I do have an opinion and if that opinion make many uncomfortable that is not my problem. The fact is that YOU don´t know nothing about German Orders, you have never seen one.

You like to take high risks, it´s fine by me, not really clever but I am not like you, I respect my earned money.
By the way, enamel does not react to heat as glass! Enamel is a glazed paint and glass is common sand, junior.

Cheers.

[Matthew]

I've seen people like you before but I had to pay admission

Having an opinion is one thing. You tried to convince us that whatever you had to say was fact backed by very extensive research. Problem is, when called on those facts you had nothing to show. Opinion is me saying a demitasse would fit your head like a sombrero. That's an opinion.
What you tried to present us with was more than opinion, damaging few pieces in the process.
I have examined a German Order or two which is probably more than you ever held.
Judging by what you know about period enamel, which is about as much as you know about NSDAP Honor Awards, the last thing you should do is start typing again but if it is an urge you can't control start by looking up the definition of vitreous enamel. Maybe then you won't look like you came unarmed to the battle of wits.
Only thing you proved so far is that brains aren't everything. In fact, in your case, they're nothing.

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

My dear Matthew,

You don´t give up do you? You will need a much bigger brain to set me up, as you already know.
Again as for the first NSDAP Honor Award I hope you are NOT refering to the Blood Order or the HJ Gold Honor Badge.....because they were not.

However I am a carrier of great news. Mr. Doyle is about to publish his new book in Orders and Decorations, Political and Civil, of the Third Reich in 3 languages. It will be in two volumes and with 885 pages each volume in A4 format, all in collor with high quality pictures (over 2,000 pics). So what was once a theory will be a published written prove! Check mate sir! You lost and you have lost huge!

Since you said you have brains I have a question for you!
What is the connection between Wilhelm Deumer, Karl Loy and Rudolf Souval in relation to the German Order?

When I first met Mr. Bill Stump with Mr. Doyle, about 25 years ago, they talked about that and Mr. Stump said that Doyle was 100% right. Also I want any member of this forum, in special those really interested in this story, to feel free to speak up and tell your opinion.

Thank you very much.

[Matthew]

You're saying that first honor award of the Nazi Party was not HJ Gold Honor Badge?
Wow..Are you sure?

Your friend is coming up with over 1700 pages book on Political Awards? Niiiice. I hope he included Gau Badges. Looking forward to it.

I would be delighted to tell you what the connection between Deumer, Loy and Souval was. Right after you correctly answer my question about the honor badge from few pages ago. You spewed out few names, all incorrect. Why don't you ask your friend, the new author to help you with that one- I am sure he knows...

[Mark Costa]

In regards to your request Chris, I have been researching the German Order for over 40 years and have handled several including rare prototypes. I have stayed out of this fray for obvious reasons but can say that I knew Bill Stump and corresponded on this subject for years with him. I can say that once Doyle's info is released it should be the final word. I will say this, most if not all, of the German Orders I have seen on various auctions site are fakes or post war restrikes whatever you wish to call them.

I will disagree with one statement in regards to their value -- as no originally awarded version has ever been in the public domain, the current value of an original unattributed order would certainly not be a good comparison with something like Moelders Diamonds. Now if an authentic awarded version ever appeared such as Todt's or Lutze's for example then the going price would be astronomical. The fact that all known German Orders are unattributed their value is not as great, even though it is Nazi Germany's highest award.

Mark Costa

[Matthew]

Thanks for the info Mark.
One question: how do you tell those made pre 1945 with post war restrikes (presumably on original tooling)?

cheers

Matt

[Stan]

With respect, what makes Bill Stump and Aylson Doyle the oracle when it comes to the German Order? We have all done our homework and those guys will have made their own mistakes and come to wrong conclusions the same as the rest of us.

In 1981 WS published a magazine which showed the Army Balloon Observers badge. He later changed his mind about those and knowledge has increased greatly since he passed away.

If Mark has proof of what an original looks like perhaps he will enlighten us.

As far as I am concerned Doyles book will only offer an opinion and not the concrete evidence we have been promissed.

I may be wrong but as far as I am concerned the recent discovery of a DO brought back from Germany in WWII by an American vet is futher proof that Originals made of Tombak did exist.

Stan

[chen]

With respect, what makes Bill Stump and Aylson Doyle the oracle when it comes to the German Order? We have all done our homework and those guys will have made their own mistakes and come to wrong conclusions the same as the rest of us.

In 1981 WS published a magazine which showed the Army Balloon Observers badge. He later changed his mind about those and knowledge has increased greatly since he passed away.

If Mark has proof of what an original looks like perhaps he will enlighten us.

As far as I am concerned Doyles book will only offer an opinion and not the concrete evidence we have been promissed.

I may be wrong but as far as I am concerned the recent discovery of a DO brought back from Germany in WWII by an American vet is futher proof that Originals made of Tombak did exist.

Stan

[Matthew]

GO's

I wouldn't put too much into the claim that tombak ones are fakes simply because they're tombak.

By Deumer's own admission, they donated the few pieces they had produced before the war's end to the Ludenscheid Museum. Those pieces are made in tombak, not silver.
Furthermore and again going by Deumer's own claim- the original tooling used in the production of those orders was destroyed at the end of the war, rendering any 'restrikes' impossible.
If it is true that most of those sold recently are post war copies, they will be different from the Deumer originals. No way around it. But if they are comparing favorably with their Ludenscheid counterparts, they too must be produced pre 1945, and in effect, original. Even if not awarded.
It is mentioned in one of the letters from the curator of Ludenscheid Museum that the order in question was "by firms in Ludenscheid among others" when discussing the pieces donated to them by Deumer. (Zimmermann?)

Many questions come to mind, but one that is definitely near the top of that list is the explanation of why the Ludenscheid Museum specimens as donated to them by Deumer are fakes since they too, are made in tombak.

cheers

Matt

[Stan]

It has been documented that Souval produced a post-war copy of the DO in 935 silver. It is my hunch that this Souval piece is the one which we are going to be asked to accept as the real deal.

Stan

[Stan]

The German army's highest award for bravery was the the CCC in Gold with top hook. It was made of tombak.

Wm Deumer used tombak for his NSDAP long-service crosses. The bronze grade made of tombak differs from other makers in this respect and is possibly unique.

The Deumer 25-Yr NSDAP cross is arguably the only one produced. Souval did make a copy of their own but whether or not it is pre or post 1945 is debatable.

To quote from conversations with WS from 25 years ago is probably not going to be very helpful owing to the fact that so much new information has come come to light. For instance, the existance of the above mentioned award version of the CCC in Gold with top hook was disputed by some advanced collectors just 10 years ago. Very few collectors doubt them now.

Stan

[Matthew]

There would have to be A LOT of decorations deemed fake for his theory to take flight.
Starting with overwhelming majority of tinnies (since some are made in silver indeed), through equestrian awards (except for the 990 variety of course) to the more prestigious awards like PDA's (tombak type), Pilot Badges (since some are made in 800 even if majority shrug off the very idea of their period existence), even the GPB's as we know them, would have to be looked at again since we know at least two made in platinum exist.
On the plus side- we could eliminate ALL Hoffstaetter SS Civil pins since we have silver Gahrs and those doing valuable research proving fake a fake could move on to more important things.

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

Hello Mark Costa, Members of the forum,

I don´t know you Mark but I have heard from Doyle that you also research German Orders for a very long time. I am also aware that you and Doyle exchanded e-mails in several occasions and your opinions are very respected by Doyle that asked me to send his best regards.

I never, ever said that we know everything about German Orders. I can recall now at least 3 crucial questions, we cannot, yet, answer. We will get to that one later.

When I asked about the connections between Deumer, Loy and Souval, I was saying that, IN FACT, Souval also bought all rolls of ribbons Karl Loy had left. We could not find how many rolls or what was the total lenght to each roll, only, why would Souval did that? This information was proven as a fact when Doyle was talking to Mr. Stump. So, if you have an original Souval German Order know that the ribbons of the First Class and the Second Class are 100% authentic made by Karl loy from München in 1942. At least those made in .935 Silver. The last type made by Souval was not in silver.

I never said that, may be, Deuner never produced a tombak German Order as Doyle have seen one cased constructed in gilded bronze in Angolia´s collection in 1994 and again in 1995 at his home in Kansas City. It is the same cross he used on his book “For Führer and Fatherland”. However this cross was a PROTOTYPE and we believe that more than one prototype existed. This particular one had a pair of crossed swords behind the eagles and the center piece (GPB) was smaller. I have collor pictures and so does MarK, I know Doyle sent to him. My point is how many prototypes in tombak or not did Deumer produced? I already gave you all a hint...remember the “package” Souval bought and may not paid Deumer? What was the full package? I do know!

So, if Souval produced German Orders and that is a fact, where did his dies come from if not Deumer? How many dies did Deumer have? If they were all destroyed as Matthew sais where are the evidences? I know for a fact that Souval had at least 3 complete sets. For whom these dies have been sold before Souval died? We have a very good idea but we could not find this guy.

Finally I do have a question to my dear friend Matthew and I do know he likes gau badges in special, Gau Baden, the first NSDAP Gau Honor badge, am I right?
Were you able to have a copy of all Jewelers working for Deumer and crossed reference with a complete list of the people working for Souval? Did you see something "strange"?

Enough for now.
Regards to you all.