3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[der-hase-fee]

German Orders were all different from themselves as they were produced one by one.

This Third Class bel(l ?)ow, posted by Stonemint is very close, may have been produced with Souval dies but...too much (many ?) differences that will not fool anyone.

Assuming you mean to say they are all different due to being manufactured individually, how could you possibly recognize a fake with "more" differences if you haven't closely examined all originals ever made ?

I wonder why you would think the one Stonemint posted is "very close", wouldn't even have fooled me.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Assuming you mean to say they are all different due to being manufactured individually, how could you possibly recognize a fake with "more" differences if you haven't closely examined all originals ever made ?

I wonder why you would think the one Stonemint posted is "very close", wouldn't even have fooled me.

Dear der-hase-fee,

Do you know the basic differences between what I like to call Deumer/Souval crosses and those I call fakes made by amateurs? Do you understand how different they are?
Do you also understand that by original pictures it´s impossible to say that Deumer/Souval crosses were the design in which these crosses were produced during the war. Same deal otherwise to what is regarding to the 'amateurs fakes'. However, since it is a fact that Souval bought, and may not paid Deumer for these dies, or what I prefer to call this deal, 'the package', it is logical to understand that reproductions made by Souval are closest in design then the other 'option' for the most obvious reasons.
When I made commnets about the cross Stonemint posted I meant to say that this cross resemble Deumer/Souval style, like some other cross, a First Class in another thread, and that´s all.
I have closely examined two original First Class crosses and the Grosskreuz set of sash with decoration and the gold massive star that I do have pictures.
May be you should read my posts again.
Chris.

[NBolinger]

german order

Period pictures clearly show its a deumer type with the floting swaz.Suval chicken head type clearly dont have the floting swaz. What better proof is there then the original pictures? Why dont you post a real one for us to view? I cant believe people think the germans would award a order with the ugly eagle or chicken heads, suval or duemer i think who ever made the suvals was smoking Crack when he decided on the chickens instead of eagles.

[Jon. H]

Here's the best close up photo i have found of a genuine one, from the Fritz Todt funeral pillow.


orden.jpg

[Jon. H]

[ATTACH]2243930[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]2243931[/ATTACH]

[ErichS]

Looks like a fake to me Jon!

[Gary Symonds]

Looks like a fake to me Jon!

Jon:
Could you please post the original funeral pillow picture.
Gary

[Jon. H]

Looks like a fake to me Jon!

Jon:
Could you please post the original funeral pillow picture.
Gary

Indeed!


fritz todt.jpg

[Gary Symonds]

Looks like a fake to me Jon!

Guys:
What Jon has posted, an original picture of Fritz Todt's funeral pillow, depicting the German Order, is nothing less than extraordinary. The German Order that is shown in the original photo is clearly the so-called Souval "fake".

How could this be? The experts on the Forum have told us over and over again the the "chicken headed" German Order is a Souval reproduction and that the Duemer version with the round headed eagle is the only accepted "original".

The only other funeral pillow picture of the German Order that I have seen prior to Jon's posting, was at Heydrich's funeral in June 1942. The German Order in that photo is the Duemer version, with the round headed eagles and the Fuess type Gold Party badge in the center.

Therefore, either the Todt photo is somehow a fake, or the reality is that there were two makers of the German Order.

Fritz Todt was killed in an air crash on February 8, 1942. His funeral was on February 11th. Clearly, it would have been impossible even for the Germans to have produced the depicted German Order in a period of three days.

This is strong evidence that the German Order had already been in the works in February 1942, and the funeral was the logical time to reveal it.

In my readings about the NSDAP, which the German Order is the Party's highest award, per Hitler himself, the Party rarely gave an exclusive lock to any one manufacturer to produce an item, whether it was a dagger or a medal. This was the "socialist" aspect of the Party in action, by spreading the work around.

It is obvious to me that the Party vetted two contracts for the production of the German Order, which would be standard business practice. For whatever reasons, the Party could have decided to grant the German Order as produced by Duemer subsequent to Todt's funeral, as the award piece, and placed the so-called chicken head version in storage.

I would point out that Andre Huskin's 1999 Katalog depicts a pin back third class chicken headed German Order, as an original. I have contacted Herr Huskin and he has informed me that he stands by his opinion in his book, that the chicken headed German Order is in fact an original.

We have been told that this version is a Souval reproduction. Nobody has ever posted a picture of somebody telling us that he bought this from Souval in the 60s or early 70s, and this is what Souval produced. Such a direct line from the purchaser, has never been established.

Therefore, the common opinion that these so-called chicken headed eagles are fakes, may just be one of the endless collector myths that we pay lip service to, without the slightest supporting evidence. A very common tactic in the WAF.

Therefore, the challenge is to show that the February 1942 photo of Todt's funeral pillow is a product of a photo shop, or in the alternative these 'fakes" are in fact period originals.

Do any WAF members have some cogent factual evidence to refute this, not just conclusionary opinions based on what other members have said?
Gary

[Alex W.]

To keep this thread going, here are some pics of a German Order 3rd Class made by Souval.
It's made of 935 silver and a nice heavy piece. Even though it was made by Souval, it's a rare find.

[Alex W.]

more

[Alex W.]

reverse

[Alex W.]

Pin marked L/58 and 935

[Alex W.]

The much discussed Souval "smoking chicken head" eagles. Sure don't look that bad up close.

[Alex W.]

next to the German Order First Class by Souval. A nice set.