"Mahnmal" monument centerpiece

[JoeW]

No, the phrase dates to March 1933 (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9&postcount=22). "I spent most day yesterday going through my limited library of contemporary accounts of events in 1933 to locate the source of the "Und ihr habt doch gesiegt!" slogan. Got lucky with volume 2 of Dokumente des Dritten Reiches, Die Sammlung Rehse, published by Dr. Adolf Drexler:
After the raise to power in Bavaria on the 9th of March, Hitler came to visit on the 12th. He headed straight for the Feldherrnhalle, to lay a huge laurel wreath with a sash with those particular words on it. "
The 14 martyrs are also shown in Dr. Curt Rosten's book with the same title, copyright 1934 (http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/s...54&postcount=1).

Andreas, was the quote above in bold, underlined italics from your post last year a translation from the Drexler book? Was the extact phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt" used in the article?

[der-hase-fee]

Andreas, was the quote above in bold, underlined italics from your post last year a translation from the Drexler book? Was the extact phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt" used in the article?

That was a summary. Original text:

"On March 12 Adolf Hitler made his first visit to the city of Munich in his position as Reichskanzler. Instantly, he headed to the Feldherrnhalle, the place where the first 16 National Socialists lost their lives on 9. November 1923 for their believe in Germany's national socialist future. The Führer lay a huge laurel wreath at the Feldherrnhalle, its sash embossed with the meaningful words 'Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt!'".

The accompanying picture is subtitled: "Wreaths at Munich's Feldherrnhalle. In the middle, the large wreath from the Führer with the sash embossment: 'Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt !'".

[JoeW]

Andreas, thank you for the clarification. How long did it take to create the Mahnmal? Curious if the Bavarian government who built the Mahnmal worked with AH with the legend and design.

[der-hase-fee]

Hiltler's commemorative address at the inauguration of the Mahnmal

Gedenkrede Adolf Hitlers am 9. November 1933 vor der Feldherrnhalle in München

Männer der deutschen Revolution, meine alte Garde !
Als wir im Jahre 1919 in den politischen Kampf eintraten, taten wir es noch als Soldaten. Wir alle haben ehrenhaft für Deutschland unsere Pflicht erfüllt. Erst als die Heimat versagte und die politische Führung jammervoll preisgab, was Millionen Menschen mit ihrem Blute erkauft hatten, da entschlossen wir uns, einzutreten in den Kampf der Heimat selbst, ausgehend von der Überzeugung, daß das Opfer der Soldaten vergeblich sein muß, wenn die politische Führung schwach wird.
Da die Revolution des November 1918 die Gesetze von einst gebrochen hat, konnte sie nicht von uns erwarten, daß wir sie als legalen Rechtszustand anerkennen würden.
Wir haben ihr damals als Männer und politische Soldaten den Krieg angesagt, entschlossen, die Verantwortlichen des November zu stürzen, so oder so früher oder später zur Rechenschaft zu ziehen.
So sind wir dann auch im November 1923 marschiert, erfüllt von dem Glauben, es könne gelingen, die Schuldigen des November 1918 zu beseitigen, die Männer zu vernichten, die schuld waren an den namenlosen Unglück unseres Volkes.
Das Schicksal hat damals anders entschieden. Heute, nach zehn Jahren, beurteilen wir die Zeit leidenschaftslos. Wir wissen, daß wir wohl alle damals unter diesem Befehl des Schicksals standen und daß wir wohl alle Werkzeuge einer höheren Macht waren.
Es sollte nicht gelingen; die Zeit war noch nicht reif dafür. Das, was uns damals am meisten schmerzte, war der Zwiespalt, der entstand zwischen den Kräften, die auch uns einst in ihren Reihen hatten, und den Kräften, die die Nation brauchte, um frei zu werden. Der Riß tat damals weh, und wir hatten nur eine Hoffnung, daß die Zeit diese innere Wunde wieder heile, daß aus den damals feindlichen Brüdern, die doch alle nur für Deutschland am Ende streiten wollten, einst wieder die Gemeinschaft erwüchse, die wir viereinhalb Jahre lang erlebt hatten.
Zehn Jahre sind jetzt vergangen, und es ist für mich an diesem Tage das höchste Glück, daß nunmehr die Hoffnung von einst in Erfüllung gegangen ist, daß wir nun zusammenstehen: die Repräsentanten des Heeres und die Vertreter unseres Volkes, daß wir wieder eins geworden sind, und daß diese Einheit niemals mehr in Deutschland zerbrechen wird.
Damit erst hat dieses Blutopfer seinen Sinn erhalten und ist nicht vergeblich gewesen. Denn wofür schon damals marschierten, das war das, was jetzt Wirklichkeit geworden ist.
Würden unsere Toten des 9. November 1923 heute auferstehen - sie würden weinen vor Glück, daß nunmehr die deutsche Armee und das erwachende deutsche Volk sich zu einer Einheit gefunden haben.
Deshalb können wir heute mit Recht die Erinnerung an diese damalige Zeit pflegen und können mit Recht heute das Denkmal dieser Zeit enthüllen.
Wir aber, die uns das Schicksal leben ließ, wir wollen den Dank für die Kameraden von damals verbinden mit dem Dank an die Kameraden der vier Jahre vorher, damit wir selbst nun das Sehnen und die Hoffnung dieser Zeit erfüllen durch die Erfüllung unserer eigenen Pflicht.
Uns hat das Schicksal den Weg gezeichnet, den wir niemals verlassen wollen.
Indem wir dieses Denkaml enthüllen, will ich noch einmal allen denen danken, die in diesen langen Jahren treu für die deutsche Wiederauferstehung gekämpft haben, jeder an seinem Platz, will danken den Zehn- und Hunderttausenden von Kameraden der Bewegung, will danken den Männern der anderen Verbände, die, auf anderem Wege marschierend, am Ende doch zu uns gestoßen sind und will auch denen danken, die die Wehrmacht in den neuen Staat hineinführten.
Indem wir heute die ganze Kraft der Nation zusammenschließen, geben wir den Toten nunmehr ihre ewige Ruhe; denn dafür haben sie gekämpft, dafür sind die gefallen ! Und in diesem tieften Sinne wollen wir das Denkmal jetzt enthüllen.

[Jon Fish]

Men of the German Revolution, my old guard!
When we entered in 1919 in the political struggle, we did it as a soldier. We all have fulfilled our duty honorably for Germany. Only when the home miserable gave away failed and the political leadership, what millions of people had bought with their blood, because we decided to enter into the fray of the home itself, on the basis of the belief that the sacrifice of the soldiers must be in vain if the political leadership is weak.
Since the revolution of November 1918 broke the laws, she could not expect from us, that we would recognize them as legal legal status.
We have her at the time as men and political soldiers said the war, decided to overthrow the leaders of November so or so sooner or later to the account.
So we have marched in November 1923, met by faith, we could be able to eliminate the culprits of November 1918, to destroy the men who were responsible for the unnamed disaster of our people.
The fate has decided otherwise at the time. Today, after ten years, we assess dispassionately the time. We know that we probably all at that time were under the command of fate and that we were probably all tools of a higher power.
It should not succeed; the time was not yet ripe for it. What hurt us the most at that time was the discord, was formed between the forces that once we also had in their ranks, and the forces that the nation needed to be free. The crack hurt at the time, and we had only a hope the time to heal this inner wound again, that at that time enemy brothers, who all wanted to fight only for Germany at the end, once again the community erwüchse, which we had seen for four and a half years.
Ten years have now passed, and it is the greatest happiness that now the hope of once is come true, that we now stand together for me on this day: the representatives of the army and representatives of our people, that we have become again one, and that this unit will never break in Germany.
Thus only has received this blood sacrifice its meaning and was not in vain. Because what even then marched, which was what has now become a reality.
Would our dead of 9 November 1923 today be resurrected - they would cry with happiness that now the German army and the emerging German people sit down to one.
Therefore, we maintain today the memory with right at this time and can today reveal the monument of this time justifiably.
But, we live the fate of us let, we want the thanks for the comrades of the time connect thanks to the comrades of the four years previously, so that we even now to satisfy the yearning and hope of this time by meeting our own duty.
The fate has awarded us the way which we will never want to leave.
By we reveal this Denkaml, will I thank once again all those who faithfully fought in these long years for the German resurrection, each in its place, I want to thank the tens and hundreds of thousands of comrades of the movement, wants to thank the men of other associations, marching, are encountered in some other way at the end but to us and I want to also thank, the Germans in the new State of hineinführten.
By we now unite the whole force of the nation, we give now the dead their eternal rest; because for that they have fought, for the fallen! And we now want to unveil the monument tieften in this sense.

[der-hase-fee]

A little bumpy, but sometimes due to my typos, I suppose.

[der bingle]

A little bumpy, but sometimes due to my typos, I suppose.

Great background discussion here, enjoying all the history in detail concerning the manmahl on this thoroughly thought thru discussion. i will be very happy to be able to contribute the few more items on this subject that i have in the collection......i know that it has been discussed here before, but is there any new information on the actual disposal of the manmahl. also the special personally individually named flags that draped
each coffin, with the hand slots probably made of the finest material?....great, and historic relics.

[ErichS]

From what I have read, the Mahnmal was removed by the citizens of Munich.

[oldflagswanted]

Munich monument metal ???

Fantastic photos and ones that I never have seen.
I always thought that the lids were made of bronze
and not iron.

Hello ES:
Saw this online recently, about the fate of the Munich
Temple coffins, ..."Designed by Professor Heinlein, the
sarcophagi originally cast at the Wasseralfingen steel works
in Baden-Württemberg and the eight columns weighing over 21
tons were recycled. The scrap was used to make brake shoes for
municipal buses. Weighing nearly 2,900 pounds, the metal caskets
were donated to the Munich tram service and converted into soldering
material to repair rail ties and electrical lines." And as well the "The
bronze eagles designed by party member Kurt Schmidt-Ehmen" were
... "removed...[from] the former Nazi buildings on [the] Königsplatz..."
So maybe some of the Munich NSDAP metal still lays around?
OFW

[ErichS]

Hello ES:
Saw this online recently, about the fate of the Munich
Temple coffins, ..."Designed by Professor Heinlein, the
sarcophagi originally cast at the Wasseralfingen steel works
in Baden-Württemberg and the eight columns weighing over 21
tons were recycled. The scrap was used to make brake shoes for
municipal buses. Weighing nearly 2,900 pounds, the metal caskets
were donated to the Munich tram service and converted into soldering
material to repair rail ties and electrical lines." And as well the "The
bronze eagles designed by party member Kurt Schmidt-Ehmen" were
... "removed...[from] the former Nazi buildings on [the] Königsplatz..."
So maybe some of the Munich NSDAP metal still lays around?
OFW

Thanks OFW, I would love to have a piece of that metal in my collection!

[oldflagswanted]

lots of great info in this thread !!!

Thanks OFW, I would love to have a piece of that
metal in my collection!

ES:
Also noted this coffin metal fate in this thread,
in post 264. Seems I'm slowly reading through
all the posts - lots of great info. I see in post
345 about some of the Munich sarcophagi lettering
is now embedded in a Canadian vets driveway. In
a book on war reporters it shows an Allied photo-
grapher on the top of a coffin, and the swastikas
removed from the lid eagles - white background
showing. 1985 "Victory in Europe - In Full Color"
LoCCC 85-50176, shows coffin lids on page 158
with eagle swastikas intact, so they were indeed
removed before their melt down. Something else
still to maybe look for from vet hands.
OFW

[Jon Fish]

I picked this up today, the only decent item for me after a whole day of walking! Well I had to be strong and resist a couple of decent daggers, getting that dagger draw recently pretty bad!!

[ErichS]

I picked this up today, the only decent item for me after a whole day of walking! Well I had to be strong and resist a couple of decent daggers, getting that dagger draw recently pretty bad!!

Nothing wrong with that and a cool photo that goes well with your collection!

[der-hase-fee]

Not the Drückeberger type !

[Br. James]

Nice find, Jon! I'll bet those "heiling" boys were there in Munich as part of an HJ gathering or celebration of some sort...there's an HJ banner flying from one of the plaza flag staffs out in the middle of the Odeonsplatz.

Cheers,

Br. James