"Mahnmal" monument centerpiece

[Br. James]

Thanks Joe. I realize that the Brown House opened for business on 1/1/1931, and I was under the impression that the RZM moved there when the leadership offices did at that time. When you use the term "general offices," does this mean that the Schellingstrasse 50 address remained in NSDAP hands after the Brown House was refurbished?

Br. James

[JoeW]

The address was identified as mailing address for officers of the RZM in RL publication of 1933. That does not indicate that the address was owned by the NSDAP, but rather at least used by them at that date.

[der bingle]

The address was identified as mailing address for officers of the RZM in RL publication of 1933. That does not indicate that the address was owned by the NSDAP, but rather at least used by them at that date.

Br James, I apreciate your thoughtful, and excellent aproach to the possible solving of the actual publication date of the gefallen postcard that i have posted.....the 1923 date on the card?,as you explained, the Hoffmann address would be the possible solver.did Hoffman publish anything in 1923? any examples of RP postcards FROM 1923 24. RPP from the U.S. can be dated from the backs. the provenance of the card is Prof. Ehmen estate. your card of 1934 with same address as mine could indicate the possible publication date. the design if proven could have been made up for the tenth aniversary along with the installment of the Manmahl in which Prof. Ehman was a big part of. does this design exist before 1933. i noticed that the 14 martyr design apears in a booklet Erich posted a while back on , i believe FELDHERENHALLE thread. i believe the date was 1933. to me the design looks vintage even for 1933. the design looks like it was created in 1923. Hoffmann was associated with the N.S.D.A.P. as far back as 1923. it could very well have been reprinted many times. how many of them are around, and how many variants are out there? this card is certainly interesting!

[JoeW]

The post card shared with us by Der Bingle in his note #386 is interesting to me for a number of reasons...y used on post cards throughout the period. Perhaps some of our colleagues .................................Der Bingle postulates that his card in note #386 is "Possibly the first comercially produced postcard of the N.S.D.A.P." and, while the address of Hoffmann Studios it bears does not appear to be from the early 1920s, the format of the card -- it's use of only fourteen of the sixteen 'Putsch martyrs' -- does seem to come from a very early time. Could it be a reprint of an earlier release? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this question? Thanks again to Der Bingle for his fine input!

Br. James

When did Hitler coin the phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt"? Was it in "Mein Kampf"? Wouldn't the post cards be dated after that date? I would suspect post-1926.

[der-hase-fee]

When did Hitler coin the phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt"? Was it in "Mein Kampf"? Wouldn't the post cards be dated after that date? I would suspect post-1926.

No, the phrase dates to March 1933 (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9&postcount=22).

The 14 martyrs are also shown in Dr. Curt Rosten's book with the same title, copyright 1934 (http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/s...54&postcount=1).

[der bingle]

When did Hitler coin the phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt"? Was it in "Mein Kampf"? Wouldn't the post cards be dated after that date? I would suspect post-1926.

Good point Joe, that could be a starting point.....about the design, i didnt take in consideration the somber memorial aspect of it where designs of that nature are timeless.

[JoeW]

So everything with the phrase is dated 1933 or later? Is that then the beginning of the List of Martyrs?

[ErichS]

Here is the booklet that I have from the 33 event. Note the photo has 14 martyrs like the card while 16 are listed in print.

[ErichS]

The cover of the booklet and a later martyr card from my collection.

[Br. James]

Perhaps Joe's question as to the origin of the 'list of martyrs' can, in part at least, be answered by Hitler himself. "Mein Kampf" was dedicated to these named sixteen men, and the Dedication was written on October 16, 1924. I don't have a copy of MK at hand earlier than the 1933 edition, which contained both of the earlier volumes, but I am assuming that both of the single-volume books -- the 1925 edition of Volume I and the 1927 edition of Volume II -- carried the same Dedication, since it predates the first Volume. Can anyone verify the content of the MK Dedication from the two single volumes?

Br. James

[Br. James]

"the 1923 date on the card?,as you explained, the Hoffmann address would be the possible solver.did Hoffman publish anything in 1923?"

Dear Bingle,

Thanks for your good input to a murky question! I interpreted the number "1923" on your card to be the style or item reference number, not a date of publication, since it appears at the same location on the card where other such control or series numbers were carried.

As to when the Heinrich Hoffmann Studio began producing NSDAP post cards, the earliest reference to a Hoffmann product in Roger Bender's 1st volume of his "Postcards of Hitler's Germany" is from 1927, though that may just be because none of the collectors who contributed to that book series had any earlier Hoffmann cards to show. Hoffmann worked in the photography business from 1908 onward, apprenticed to his father, and he originally joined the NSDAP in 1920. He was among the very first Party members to be assigned a new number after the NSDAP was reorganized in February of 1925 when Hitler was released from the Landsberg Fortress -- Hoffmann held NSDAP number 59.

Br. James

[JoeW]

No, the phrase dates to March 1933 (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...9&postcount=22).

The 14 martyrs are also shown in Dr. Curt Rosten's book with the same title, copyright 1934 (http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/s...54&postcount=1).

So we date the famous phrase to March 1933. Let's remember that the state of Bavaria arranged for and paid for the Mahnmahl featuring the phrase Gau Munchen-Oberbayern paid for the Festungsabzeichen featuring the phrase.

[Br. James]

Do keep in mind that the text emblazoned on the slab of the Mahnmal in the Feldherrnhalle was a paraphrase of the Dedication of "Mein Kampf," and that would seem to indicate that the list of the 16 names of the 'martyrs of the movement' pre-existed the Schmid-Ehmen sculpture by a number of years.

Br. James

[JoeW]

Sorry Br. James, I misunderstood your comment above about Hitler's dedication of "Mein Kampf". I thought you wrote he dedicated the book to the sixteen who died in the putsch. I didn't understand that he actually used the phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt" in the dedication.

[Br. James]

No misunderstanding, Joe; that is what I meant. We seem to have two slightly different conversations going at once here. What I had hoped to clarify was the origin of the list of the sixteen names, as we have seen examples of fourteen names listed as the 'martyrs of the Putsch.' "Mein Kampf" was dedicated to the sixteen who died in the fighting at the Feldherrnhalle and the Bavarian War Ministry building, and the list of the sixteen names was perpetuated as the Dedication in MK. The bronze plaque providing the text to the Schmidt-Ehmen memorial in the Feldherrnhalle was a slightly shorter version of that Dedication.

Hitler did not use the phrase "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt" within that Dedication, though his sentiment is summed up in that phrase. So sorry for the confusion.

Br. James