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**JoeW** · 06-27-2012, 11:11 PM

Br.James, this site http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coburg_...nalsozialismus although in German provides quite a good explanation of the events of 14-15 Okt 1922, including locations. The Hofbrauhausgasstatte was located on Mohrenstrasse, in the center of town, a short distance from the train station via Bahnhofstrasse. It is the location I pictured in preceding threads. The billet for Hitler and his men, which would be his Standquartier as shown in the picture Erich provided was called a Schiesshaus, Schiesshalle (Mein Kampf) or the Alten Schiesshaus (Schwede).

The Altes Schutzenhaus pictured in Hitler Pages was a legitimate shooting facility as explained in the web site for that restaurant. But it was located far out of town for the SA to reach in a short march. But seaching I found this web site and explanation for the Alte Schutzenhaus/Altes Schiesshaus: http://www.coburg-magazin-forum.de/t...etzenhaus.html This location was on Schillerplatz which was off Schutzenstrasse and short distance for the march on the 15th to the large Market Square in front of City Hall on the way to the Fortress Coburg. Then from there back to the Bahnhof.

Hitler spoke the evening of the 14th in the Great Room of the Hofbraugaststatten that also served as a site for events 10 years later.

Using Google Earth is a great help in comparing the locations. The 1922 events in Coburg were also discussed though not in great detail in Das Ehrenbuch der SA (Koch 1936).

**Br. James** · 06-28-2012, 10:52 AM

Great research work, Joe, and many thanks for enlightening us with your effort! And from the German Wikipedia site you found, we now also see that the German Day events were indeed sponsored by the local right-wing umbrella group. It still sounds odd that Hitler was warned not to march through the city in an aggressive military style when his special train arrived in Coburg, but perhaps this can be accounted for if the proposed local events had attracted enough left-wing attention in advance that the city was in an uproar when Hitler arrived and possibly the police had pressured the Event Organizer into trying to de-fuse this potentially-violent situation from the very beginning. They might even have threatened to forbid the large public events altogether, which would have put Organizer Hans Dietrich in a very awkward position indeed!

Br. James

**JoeW** · 06-28-2012, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Since the discussion centers on the Coburg badge and the march, I thought I would add some ancillary collectibles.

Though she was not in the march in 1922, Lina Peschel lived in Coburg on Kanonenweg. And after the march, she joined the party in her early 40s. She was an Altparteigenossin and received GPB 6183. Here is one of three letters sent by respective Political Leaders to her on her 60th birthday. This one from the Kreisleiter of Kreisleitung Coburg.

She also received letters from her Gauleiter, Fritz Wachtler, and her Ortsgruppenleiter of Coburg-Nord. I had Peschel's GPB Besitzurkunde at one time but traded it off as a favor to a long-time friend to secure a GPB Besitzurkunde to match a GPB in his collection.

This letter would have been signed by August Greim, Kreisleiter of Coburg (1937-1945) and Oberbuergemeister of Coburg.

**ErichS** · 06-30-2012, 10:54 AM

Joe and James,

Kurt Ludecke's version of the Battle:

Hitler and the seven us in his entourage followed by the Standard bearers and behind us moved the the Company of 700 men.

The police led them not to the quarters that had been arranged for them in the Schuetzenhalle but toward the Hofbrauhauskeller. There they were locked in the courtyard to protect them from the jeering crowd of Marxists. Hitler found this intolerable and on his order, had Klintzsch to re-form the SA ranks. The gates were opened and they marched towards the Schuetzenhalle and that's where the major street fighting began. He states that many SA men had to be hospitalized due to having been so brutally handled.

Ludecke then states that Hitler gave a speech at the meeting hall that was well attended. He also says that the the worst of the fighting took place that night and that some of the SA men were missing due to the fights. He also mentioned that Hitler slept on straw that night with his men.

I believe that Ludecke's account is the most believable of the events.

Erich

**Br. James** · 06-30-2012, 11:51 AM

Many thanks for summarizing Ludecke's account of the Battle of Coburg, Erich -- it follows Hitler's account from "Mein Kampf" well and provides additional details, though it seems to end on the night of Saturday, October 14th. Hitler gave a further account of the events of Sunday the 15th, when the SA contingent was supplemented at the Schuetzenhalle by about twice the men that he had brought from Munich, and he tells of the confrontation in the great square in front of the Coburg Castle. He had apparently expected that to be the location of the larger battle, but he tells us that most of the opposition fell away as the SA contingent -- supplemented by the additional numbers of other SA forces that had come in overnight -- arrived early on the scene, with only some light altercations there. A great story!

Br. James

**JoeW** · 06-30-2012, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

Joe and James,

Kurt Ludecke's version of the Battle:........................................I believe that Ludecke's account is the most believable of the events.
Erich

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Many thanks for summarizing Ludecke's account of the Battle of Coburg, Erich -- it follows Hitler's account from "Mein Kampf" well and provides additional details, though it seems to end on the night of Saturday, October 14th...............................
Br. James

Both of these sources are first-hand. Both are equally believable in my estimation, though minor differences, i.e. the number of men, can be ascribed to faulty memory or some other reason. Likewise, the report of October 1922 of Schwede-Coburg is also first-hand. He quoted Hitler and then added his own personal recollection as a resident. And perhaps he was one of the reinforcements that provided Hitler with the tactical advantage during the next day's battle. Are there other first hand sources of Battle of Coburg 1922?

I had always thought Hitler's trip to be a kind of last-minute affair to show up for the German Days. Perhaps it has been obvious to others, but I now view the affair as a premeditated confrontation long planned out by Dietrich and Hitler to begin an assault to destabilize the Bavarian government to create a condition of anarchy suited to violent overthrow. Apparently the Nazi prompted similar confrontations in other Bavarian cities.

**ErichS** · 06-30-2012, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Both of these sources are first-hand. Both are equally believable in my estimation, though minor differences, i.e. the number of men, can be ascribed to faulty memory or some other reason. Likewise, the report of October 1922 of Schwede-Coburg is also first-hand. He quoted Hitler and then added his own personal recollection as a resident. And perhaps he was one of the reinforcements that provided Hitler with the tactical advantage during the next day's battle. Are there other first hand sources of Battle of Coburg 1922?

I had always thought Hitler's trip to be a kind of last-minute affair to show up for the German Days. Perhaps it has been obvious to others, but I now view the affair as a premeditated confrontation long planned out by Dietrich and Hitler to begin an assault to destabilize the Bavarian government to create a condition of anarchy suited to violent overthrow. Apparently the Nazi prompted similar confrontations in other Bavarian cities.

Joe, I agree that this was a well thought out venture by Hitler and the party looking for an adventure out of the safe confines of Munich to see who their show would play on the road.

With the importance of the event and it's anniversary, I have to go with Ludecke' s recollection that Hitler personally handed out the award to the recipients.

As far as the chain of the events of the battle, all three accounts are very close as you and James have stated.

**Br. James** · 06-30-2012, 06:00 PM

I think we've pretty much nailed down the course of major events comprising the 'Coburg Adventure' and the Battle of Coburg. I don't know of any other memoirs or anecdotes from other participants over those two days...though that is not to say that there haven't been any others published. Quite a few of the most prominent NSDAP members of that time and later were present those days and it would have been good if at least one or two of them had mentioned it in print over the following years:
Hermann Esser
Max Amann
FX Schwarz
Ulrich Graf
Gottfried Feder
Christian Weber
Rudolf Hess
Julius Streicher
Alfred Rosenberg
Martin Mutschmann
and though Wilhelm Brückner was not present, his deputy, Julius Schaub, was.

Were there any attributions of 'Martyr of the Kampfzeit' identified with the Battle of Coburg? I can't think of any, though I don't have my copy of "Ich Kämpfe" at hand for its 'martyrology.'

Br. James

**ErichS** · 06-30-2012, 06:21 PM

James, Oskar Koerner was at Coburg and a year later was killed at the Feldherrnhalle. There may have been other future martyrs present at Coburg but Koerner was there for sure.

**ErichS** · 06-30-2012, 06:24 PM

James, i don't know of any martyrs that fell at Coburg if that's what you mean.

Ludecke wrote about missing SA men but he makes no mention if they were later located.

**JoeW** · 07-01-2012, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

James, i don't know of any martyrs that fell at Coburg if that's what you mean.

Ludecke wrote about missing SA men but he makes no mention if they were later located.

Thank you Erich for the link to the official list. Looking closely at it, besides Sister Pia, there were three other presentations to women. Of those, two were to surviving wives (fűr den Mann) and one to a mother (fűr den Sohn). I am presuming all the females were surviving and not receiving it in the absence of the male recipient. The names were Bartasch, Bauschen and Heiden. Looking through the "Ehrenlist der Ermordeten der Bewegung", I found Heinrich Bauschen of Duisburg died a martyr to the cause on Oct.19, 1929. This information corresponds to the info after the Bauschen listing on the official list. I did not find the others on the martyr list, so I presume they died of natural causes.

Speaking of the Official List, is there any date of creation for the list that is known. I would have to say it would be before 1935, as Sister Pia is listed as Pia Sponseil and we know from the biographical material that Br. James provided above that she divorced Georg Sponseil in 1935. I counted twenty-two names from Coburg on that list. 5% of the 436 first recipients joined their NSDAP comrades in the battle ground of Coburg.

**Br. James** · 07-01-2012, 02:47 PM

Thanks, Erich; you've answered my question and will assume that none of the Nazis were killed at Coburg, though an unknown number were injured and listed as MIA.

I agree with your surmise, Joe, that the Official List of Coburg Badge Recipients was earlier than 1935 -- it was probably the list used for the 1932 reunion and award ceremony.

Br. James

**JoeW** · 07-01-2012, 08:26 PM

James, isn't verliehenen in the past tense? The title is "List of awarded Honorary Badges- Coburg 1922-1932". The list wouldn't be in the past tense if it was going to be used in the 1932 award ceremony. And there are 436 names when there is a debate over the events of that presentation ceremony.

I think this is the final list is of those authorized by vetting to have received the Coburg Ehrenabzeichen and Besitzurkunde. A fellow researcher came across this document in an archival search.

There is nothing to be done with the poor condition of the microfilm copy. You will note it is an apparent unadressed letter dated October 1933 from AH's Kanzlei regarding the Coburg Honor Badge advising the recipient that the enclosed questionnaire was to be returned to the Kanzlei by 20 October 1933. The second paragraph emphasizes that the final awarding of the Honor Badge as well as the conferral of the Authorization Permit (Besitzurkunde) is dependent on the proper completion of the questionnaire. I think that this is perhaps the vetting that Erich has referred to in other posts, but apparently it occurred shortly after the creation and initial conferral of some awards at Coburg in 1932.

**JoeW** · 07-02-2012, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

Joe, I have not seen a copy of the actual decree but in every reference book that I have it lists the first award mentioned by Hitler in the 36 decree as the CB. Huffman quotes in his book that Hitler considered the CB and 29 RPT as the top two badges that a Party member could wear on their shirts. He does not make a reference for that statement though. Possibly the CB started out as an SA award in 1932 so hence under SA authority for awarding. Just a guess on my part.

Speaking of reference books, I would suppose the first one collectors have are the various editions of Doehle's wartime listing of medals and badges? It appears that it was used by many reference book writers, as some errors in Doehle appear to have been continued into the 1970s. Take for instance the date of the presentation of the Coburg Badge. On page 74 of my 1943 copy of Doehle's book, he cites the Coburg badge as having been presented on October 14, 1932. We know that is a bit early, as the Coburg annivesary occurred from October 15th through the 16th of 1932. And that Oct.14th date is offered by Angolia in his For Fuhrer and Fatherland.

Angolia also mentions the famous 6 November 1936 party decree establishing the Coburg Badge and other as official party Ehrenzeichen. But searching Doehle we seem to find some more inconsistencies. On page 74, Doehle cites the official party decree establishing the Ehrenzeichen of the Party as occurring on November 6, 1936. Yet on page 141, Doehle indicates the same decree as being issued on November 6, 1935. The Nov 6, 1936 date is cited by others and has been mentioned here, but we are not able to provide a copy of this decree. Does anyone have access to it?

Is there any other period mention of the decree besides in the Dohle books? I searched the Organisationsbuchs and found no decree of that date. But I did find a law dated November 14, 1935 that lists all the Ehrenzeichen of the NSDAP that are supposedly found in the November 6, 1936 decree. I attach it here.

Notice section 3 on the right hand page. The Ehrenzeichs are listed an authorized for wear by the order of the Fuhrer and Reichskanzler. Is this perhaps the party decree that have been mentioned before in reference books? Or is there actually a Nove.14,1936 decree?

**der-hase-fee** · 07-02-2012, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Isn't verliehenen in the past tense?

Correct, the list was put together after the 1932 ceremony.

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