The Coburg Badge

[ErichS]

Thanks James,

It's interesting to note who received the award and who didn't in relationship to how many participated in the event.

436 awards awarded, out of 800-1500 who participated.

3000+ participated in the putsch and 1500 Blood Orders were awarded.

Possibly politics being played out on who received either of the awards?

We know that after the initial awarding of both awards, one had to reapply and list witnesses to retain the awards because some were wearing the awards without having earned them.

Interesting questions here!

[Br. James]

A pleasure, Erich; hope you enjoyed my synopsis of Hitler's prose. The ratio is even more astounding when discussing the GPB: fewer than 23,000 awarded among the first 100,000 members! But we know why most of those were not awarded -- excluding those who were on the wrong end of the Night of Long Knives -- and it had to do with individuals failing to trust in the Party and maintaining their active membership status. I wonder whether similar circumstances were at play with the 1st Issue Blood Order and the Coburg Badge? Is it possible that, in order to qualify for receiving either of those two "battle awards," one had also to prove that one had maintained his Party membership throughout the intervening ten or more years of the Kampfzeit? If so, that might well account for both the missing names on the BO list as well as the CB list.

As far as the difference between the supposed 250 awards of the CB at the 1932 anniversary event and the 436 who were named to receive the badge, it may well simply be a matter that those missing 186 persons couldn't get to Coburg for that event. After all, the great majority of the Nazis who stood with Hitler at Coburg were not locals; they traveled great distances to be there in 1922, but perhaps some of them just couldn't get the time off from their jobs to attend the 10th Anniversary? I assume that everyone who traveled with Hitler to/from Coburg on the special Munich train did not have to pay for round-trip tickets, and I suppose that the other SA formations that were summoned to Coburg in 1922 also paid the travel expenses for the men who responded positively; ten years later it would have all been out-of-pocket! And the anniversary event came well before the Nazis took control of the government, after all!

Br. James

[ErichS]

We know Kurt Ludecke was at the Battle of Coburg having traveled to Coburg in the same train car as Hitler, Eckert, Rosenberg and Weber and his account of both the Battle and 10th anniversary is to be most believed IMO.


Do we know if Schwede Coburg was at the event in 1922? After all, he was not on the orginal list of recipients and he received his badge as a possible honor award?


more questions than answers that may never be answered but fun to ponder.

[JoeW]

Thanks Br. James. It seems the scenario is identical to that presented in Schwede-Coburg's report, with them ending up at the Alte Schiesshaus- Shooting gallery which logically was on the outskirts of town.

But I think you might have run into a problem with the translation of the English edition. The seemingly conflicting statement of ordering "...eight hundred men of the S.A. , who were in about fourteen detachments of one hundred.." sounds like a translators problem with the term Hundertschaften. The German word is used in Schwede-Coburg's report which seems to be taken from the Mein Kampf explanation. I am familiar with it in my police collecting as it was a common term for a company of men- a detachment of one hundred. The Weimar era police used the word Hunderschaften as the occupying powers discouraged "military" terms for the police. So Hitler and Schwede-Coburg used the same word to mean simply "a company of men". Thus Hitler arranged his 800 men in fourteen companies of about 55 or so men.

While I cannot explain at this time the other reference in the English edition of over one thousand men, "... increased to almost one and a half thousand men...", I would presume that it can be likewise explained as translation error.

Erich, as to whether Schwede-Coburg was with the Coburg trip in 1922, I think you pointed out earlier that he was not on the list of original awardees. His discussion of the event in Kampf um Coburg seems to relate Hitler's report in his book. Schwede-Coburg was only the Mayor of Coburg during the 10th anniversary, the organizer of the event and the author of the party-authorized history of the city, the battle and its anniversary.

[Br. James]

You're quite welcome, Joe; it was as much fun as it was educational to re-read that section of "Mein Kampf" once again! And you may well be right about the translator's penchant toward literalism -- or, in this case, both the translators, as I used two different versions and both translations agreed in terms of the number of people present. As I also notice, your naming of the billeting location as the "Alte Schiesshaus" while the English translators both recorded it as the "shooting gallery" indicates a decision to translate even proper names into their literal meaning. To that extent, I can see that the term "Hundertschaften" would easily come out as "one hundred men." But, as you also said, this would not seem to account for Hitler's stating that the SA strength on the second day of the Battle of Coburg "...had increased to almost one and a half thousand men..." But in the end, whether there were 800 or 1,500 SA men involved with the struggle in Coburg, the reality is that, at most, only about half of those present were felt to be qualified to receive the Coburg Badge ten years later...or even perhaps less than one-third of those present!

Br. James

[JoeW]

Erich, I have to revise my statement about Schwede-Coburg's involvement in the events of 1922. According to the German Wikipedia, Schwede was a resident of Coburg and worked for the city from 1922. Wiki also reports that he c0-founded the NSDAP-Otsgruppe Coburg in October 1922. This is of course Wikipedia information and should be vetted with the resources cited, but it would seem to indicate that while he did not ride the train to Coburg with AH, he more probably there when they arrived and perhaps participated in the events. So perhaps he was well deserving of one of the 2nd issue badges.

[Br. James]

That makes sense to me, Joe. If Schwede was the local co-founder of the NSDAP in his city in 1922, he would not have needed to participate in the special train from/to Munich in order to attend the events that took place in Coburg. But, given his local position, he may well have been involved with making the advance arrangements with the German Day organizers to insure the Party's participation, and he may have been involved with securing billeting space at the Alte Schiesshaus for those who traveled to attend, plus arranging for food, etc. And, as Hitler sent out the call for any SA units within traveling distance to come to Coburg for German Day, Schwede must have been a part of working out arrangements with the local Coburg SA leadership to make sure they were present.

All that being assumed, if Schwede and his local NSDAP leadership were indeed present on the day Hitler and his special train full of SA men arrived, one must wonder how the Nazi contingent was co-opted by the local police into marching directly into its eventual impounding in the courtyard of the Hofbräuhauskeller instead of to its billets at the Alte Schiesshaus -- where the Nazis intended to go when they marched away from the train station?! Surely Schwede would have known the proper route for them to take...

Br. James

[ErichS]

Joe & James,

I want to thank you both for a great discussion on the most pivotal event in NSDAP history and more information may yet be discovered on what happened in October 1922.

Best, Erich

[JoeW]

Br. James, I verified the German text in Mein Kampf and Hitler did indeed write that the next day the numbers of SA had swelled to 1500. This is also verified in the Schwede-Coburg text that basically copies the Mein Kampf text. So it must be as you wrote, that local SA men or others reinforced the group of 800 that Hitler brought from Munich. I have found a copy of a recent historical treatise on the NSDAP in Coburg. Perhaps it will shed some light on Schwede-Coburg's involvement and the early NAZIS in Coburg at the time.

I had always thought that from Hitler's explanation the trip to Coburg was kind of a last minute thing. He makes no mention of time, just the decisions he made to gather a group to crash the German Day festivities. Obviously it was a bad assumption on my part. Looking at the flyer of the Coburg German Days posted earlier in the thread, we find Adolf Hitler listed as the last speaker of the program. So this operation must have been in the works for some time as the planning in Coburg expected Hitler to arrive and not alone, as they had assigned the Old Schooting Range as the billet for his contingent of men.

Erich, do you have a man of Coburg in the 1920s? It would be interesting to plot a route similar to the maps made for the RPT parades.

[Br. James]

Dear Erich and Joe,

Thanks so much for this most stimulating discussion...I've certainly learned more about the Battle of Coburg over these past few days than I had probably ever known before! And I always enjoy an opportunity to contribute to a conversation!

Glad the German version of "Mein Kampf" is in line with the English translations I used. Yes, as you say, Hitler makes no mention of the lapse of time between when he received the invitation to participate in the German Day event in Coburg and when the special train he asked for arrived there...but it must have been enough time prior in order for his presence to be announced on the posters created for the event, and arranging for a special train to make the round-trip must have also taken some time. A few days, at least. And it would have taken some time to arrange for the billeting of the SA at the shooting gallery, as well.

It sounds like a wonderful idea to create a map of Coburg indicating the route taken by the Nazis on the first and the second day of the German Day event, together with the probable locations of the clashes between the SA and the local communists. Actually, I'm surprised to think that the Nazis themselves didn't think of this initially -- especially Gauleiter Schwede-Coburg himself! I wonder if the 1932, the 1937 and/or the 1942 commemorations included a walking tour of the route taken in 1922, much like the 8/9 November annual Putsch commemoration? If commemoration event booklets or guidebooks are in some of our collections, then perhaps this work has already been done for us? It would be great to see it!

Br. James

[ErichS]

Joe,

sorry no map of the route used by the SA in Coburg.

The party was broke and could not afford the train so Eckert had to step up with the funds needed. so Joe, you are correct that most of the SA had to get to Coburg on their own.

[Br. James]

No map of downtown Coburg...as yet...but I did come across five pix of the historic buildings involved in the 1922 event. This website is found at www.hitlerpages.com and the Coburg section is at numbers 22-26. From what we're seeing, Hitler appears to have made more than one formal speech at locations within the city during the two-day German Day event, though he made no mention of these in "Mein Kampf." Interesting...! Since Volume 2 of "Mein Kampf" -- the book section which contains Hitler's thoughts and memories of NSDAP-related subjects -- wasn't first published until 1926, I wonder if that level of detail got lost when he put pen to paper? The text reads like a stream of consciousness and not like a fully thought-out work built up from historic notes taken at the times described. This would have an effect on its reliability as a primary reference source.

Br. James

[JoeW]

Interesting link Br. James. I had used this site before for research on Bayreuth, but had forgotten it. But I must question some of their sources. Apparently it is a site originating in Europe, perhaps the Netherlands or Germany. Looking at its bibliography, one finds Mein Kampf. But how were the activities of Hitler in Coburg in October 1922 extrapolated from his book that wasn't very specific as you point out?

I question some of the photos the site identifies, particularly the Alte Schutzenhaus and the Hoffbrauhaus. We know the building in the photo Erich posted was identified in the 1930s period as the HQ of Hitler during the Oct 1922 visit. And the photo posted on The Hitler Pages site does not appear to be any type of shooting range and it is located on the outskirts of modern Coburg. The Hoffbrauhaus identified by the site is located far to the south of the train station and not apparently within walking distance as Hitler wrote. I'm sorry, but my faith in the scholarship of this site is lacking.

The site does introduce an interesting question. It states that the German Days celebration included a visit to the Fortress Coburg by the participants on October 16th. The site states that Hitler preempted the event by leading his contingent to the fortress earlier than the planned event. Looking at the program Erich posted on the fifth page of this thread, it indicates the event was to take place the 14th and 15th of October. But the program only identifies events on the 14th. Is there something on the reverse Erich or a second page to the program that indicates a planned group march to the Fortress Coburg?

It is interesting that Hitler does not mention speaking at Coburg. Only busting heads of all the reds. The Hitler Pages site calls the German Days an event planned by right wing groups. How was that possible if the city was controlled by communists?

[ErichS]

Joe, nothing on the reverse of the program.

On a different note, while in Nuremberg a few years ago, I stopped by the Documentation Center in the former Congress Hall and noticed a large wall mural that traced the history of the party to 1945. On that mural was a large photo of the Coburg badge along with a brief history of the event showing the importance of the Battle to the young party. I wish that I had taken a photo of that section of the mural.

[Br. James]

Yes, there are definitely some 'holes' or missing pieces as concerns the buildings identified as directly connected to the Battle of Coburg. I did notice that what that website identified as the Alte Schutzenhaus appeared to be a large house or chateau located out in a field, but then I guess it is possible that the shooting range there was a large open area; it brought to a clubhouse on a golf course, where the only building would be a large place where events could take place, while the golf course itself would be a large open field. Assuming that the 800 SA men who arrived on Hitler's special train needed a place to billet, an open shooting range would seem to fill the bill.

As to the building that served as Hitler's HQ while in Coburg, he doesn't mention having such a place as separate from where the SA were billeted at the Alte Schutzenhaus...?

We would need a map of Coburg to discern where the Hofbräuhaus was located in relation to the train station, to see if it was possible for the SA contingent to march from the railway station or not. Hitler tells us that the contingent was escorted by the police to the courtyard of "the Hofbräuhauskeller near the center of the town" and that doesn't sound like it was "located far to the south of the train station and not apparently within walking distance as Hitler wrote." Perhaps there was another in mid-town, closer to the station?

As I understand it, the German Day events were scheduled to take place on Saturday and Sunday, October 14 and 15, and the schedule for the 15th included a mass assembly at the great square where the fortress of Coburg stands. Again, here is what I deduced from "Mein Kampf:"
"At 1:30 the following afternoon [Sunday, October 15th] there was scheduled to be a huge demonstration of the local communists consisting of "tens of thousands of workers from the entire surroundings." Hitler tells us: "For this reason, firmly determined to make an end for good with the red terror, at noon I ordered the SA, which meanwhile had increased to almost one and a half thousand men, to line up, and I set out with them on a march to the fortress of Coburg, across the great square in which the red demonstration was to take place. I wanted to see whether they would dare once more to molest us. Upon entering the square, there were, instead of the announced ten thousand, only a few hundred, who, when we approached, kept generally quiet, partly took to their heels. only in a few places red troops, which meanwhile had come in from the outside and who did not yet know us, tried to molest us again; but at the drop of a hat they lost all inclination of doing so. And now one could see how the hitherto anxiously intimidated population slowly woke up, how they summoned courage, how by calling and waving they dared to greet us, and in the evening, when we marched away, in many places broke out in spontaneous jubilation."

And that was the final action of the German Day events -- at least according to "Mein Kampf," after which Hitler and the SA departed, either by marching back to the railway station to their special train or by departing via whatever other means they arrived from other locations.

Br. James