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**JoeW** · 07-16-2012, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

I find it interesting that Himmler only mentions the Coburg Badge and GPB as the only political awards that automatically made an SS man eligable to receive the TK ring. I would have thought that he would have included the Blood Order as well.

Erich, I looked again in my TK Ring file and couldn't not find any authority to award the ring to BO holders. Does someone have a citation of this? The ring was awarded to SS members possessing a GPB beginning in 1936. The possession of the Coburg Badge was added in the summer of 1939, along with having suffered harm under the governments of Austria, Memel or Czechoslovakia. During the war, the RK as well as the DKiG and DKiS were added, but I didn't find the BO mentioned.

I am curious as to the possible origins of the RZM version of the Coburg Badge. Assuming an order for 600 badges was placed, one would think that there was a sufficient quantity to supply those not at the 1932 event that requested a badge in later years. Then why would another version be needed, this one accepted by the RZM? Was the lack of an RZM authorization code because the badge was produced soon after the inception of the RZM?

**Br. James** · 07-16-2012, 01:41 PM

Good information! Thanks to you both,

Br. James

**Erich B.** · 07-16-2012, 03:29 PM

Just musing about the RZM badges--it's likely that the exact number of badges needed would not have been known since the pending recipients had to apply and (if like the BO) provide documentation/witness statements, etc. to verify they had actually been in Coburg. So, an educated guess based on the size of AH's entourage in Coburg would have been possible, but until the applicants' requests were received and their statements, membership, party dues, etc. were checked and verified, the exact number wouldn't be known. Human nature being what it is, some recipients probably didn't apply right away; perhaps some men had a harder time finding witnesses or SA members from that early period to certify their membership, making the process more time consuming. Also, if I was an original recipient and subsequently received notice that a modified version of the badge with a much sturdier pin was available, I'd order one to wear and keep my awarded original in a safe or in a locked desk drawer. It would also be unknown how many recipients would have worn an RZM version to preserve their original award and to ensure against its loss or damage.

Of course, the above is pure conjecture as I have no first person information about the number of badges produced or what logic was used to decide.

Thanks for posting the listing, Joe. Do you know what organization compiled this one? While glancing at the first page, I noticed a minor misspelling of Dr. Bennecke's name--the last 'e' was omitted. I didn't check through to see if there appeared to be other minor errors or omissions.

Erich

**JoeW** · 07-16-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Erich B. View Post

...................................Thanks for posting the listing, Joe. Do you know what organization compiled this one? While glancing at the first page, I noticed a minor misspelling of Dr. Bennecke's name--the last 'e' was omitted. I didn't check through to see if there appeared to be other minor errors or omissions. Erich

At the bottom of page 4 of the list is the printed notation: Druck-Stabsabteilung der Obersten SA-Fuhrung. If they were responsible for printing it, I would say they prepared the list.

**ErichS** · 07-16-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Erich B. View Post

Just musing about the RZM badges--it's likely that the exact number of badges needed would not have been known since the pending recipients had to apply and (if like the BO) provide documentation/witness statements, etc. to verify they had actually been in Coburg. So, an educated guess based on the size of AH's entourage in Coburg would have been possible, but until the applicants' requests were received and their statements, membership, party dues, etc. were checked and verified, the exact number wouldn't be known. Human nature being what it is, some recipients probably didn't apply right away; perhaps some men had a harder time finding witnesses or SA members from that early period to certify their membership, making the process more time consuming. Also, if I was an original recipient and subsequently received notice that a modified version of the badge with a much sturdier pin was available, I'd order one to wear and keep my awarded original in a safe or in a locked desk drawer. It would also be unknown how many recipients would have worn an RZM version to preserve their original award and to ensure against its loss or damage.

Of course, the above is pure conjecture as I have no first person information about the number of badges produced or what logic was used to decide.

Thanks for posting the listing, Joe. Do you know what organization compiled this one? While glancing at the first page, I noticed a minor misspelling of Dr. Bennecke's name--the last 'e' was omitted. I didn't check through to see if there appeared to be other minor errors or omissions.

Erich

Erich, your theory makes a lot of sense.

Joe, knowing that the BO wasn't mentioned by Himmler to qualify for the ring, it was interesting to me due to the fact that it was one of the top political awards.

**JoeW** · 07-16-2012, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Erich B. View Post

Just musing about the RZM badges--it's likely that the exact number of badges needed would not have been known since the pending recipients had to apply and (if like the BO) provide documentation/witness statements, etc. to verify they had actually been in Coburg. So, an educated guess based on the size of AH's entourage in Coburg would have been possible, but until the applicants' requests were received and their statements, membership, party dues, etc. were checked and verified, the exact number wouldn't be known. Human nature being what it is, some recipients probably didn't apply right away; perhaps some men had a harder time finding witnesses or SA members from that early period to certify their membership, making the process more time consuming. Also, if I was an original recipient and subsequently received notice that a modified version of the badge with a much sturdier pin was available, I'd order one to wear and keep my awarded original in a safe or in a locked desk drawer. It would also be unknown how many recipients would have worn an RZM version to preserve their original award and to ensure against its loss or damage. ............Erich

Erich, I guess you are presuming that the RZM version of the Coburg badge was intended for those entitled to the badge but who had not made it to the 1932 Coburg celebration to receive one of those presented? By your statement above about "the size of AH's entourage in Coburg" did you mean the numbers of men accompanying Hitler in 1922? But they would have been taken into account in the original production for the 1932 presentation. My take on the RZM version would be that it was a cheaper duplicate to be made to order for those requesting a duplicate or "wear" copy. From the descriptions given here, it seems to have been a cheaper copy? Does it appear to have been made from the same die as the original non-RZM version?

Reading Schwede's book after his description of Hitler's 1922 visit to Coburg, he reported that the NSDAP Ortsgruppe Coburg was founded in late November 1922. By April of the following year, an SA unit was founded and of those original members, a few were awarded the Coburg badge in 1932.

"Joe, knowing that the BO wasn't mentioned by Himmler to qualify for the ring, it was interesting to me due to the fact that it was one of the top political awards."

Erich, it is amazing that the BO was not included in the qualifications, inasmuch as Himmler opened up the ability for an SS member to petition for the award the TK ring to a seemingly enormous cross-section of the SS membership.

**ErichS** · 07-17-2012, 04:56 PM

Joe,

from the badges that I have handled, the major differences between the two b are as follows:

The 1st type has a more convex shape and of course the needle pin.

The second type has an improved pin and is a bit smaller and slightly less weight.

Other than that, the quality is about the same IMO.

**JoeW** · 07-17-2012, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

......From the Robin Lumsden list, I find three Hofmanns of whom one might be the Oberst and Gruppenfuhrer who according to Schwede-Coburg was delegated with the responsibility of presenting the 250 Coburg Badges the morning of 16.10.1932.

Arthur Hofmann
Klaus Hofmann
Paul Hofmann

Anyone know which one is which ?

The OGF and Obst. Hofmann mentioned by Schwede-Coburg as being delegated by Hitler with the responsibilites of presenting the first 250 Coburg Badges could have been none other than OGF d. SA and Obst. a. D. Hans Georg Hofmann, commander of SA Gruppe Bay-Ostmark, a member of the OSAF and a close confident of Hitler.

Here is a photo from his biography found in "Männer im Dritten Reich".

**Br. James** · 07-18-2012, 11:54 AM

Hans Georg Hofmann was a late-comer to the Party; he joined both the SA and the NSDAP in 1931, receiving NSDAP Membership Number 550075. He died from a heart attack in 1942.

Br. James

**JoeW** · 07-18-2012, 12:36 PM

Hmm. Joining the SA in 1931 and reaching OGF in 1932. He was on a fast-track I suppose. The article in "Männer im Dritten Reich" indicates he left the Reichswehr in 1926 and became a member of the NSDAP. No time frame is given. From all his responsibilities and positions held, we either have a guy with great success or the wrong Hans Georg Hofmann. Makes no difference, as he was the man in 1932.

**Jon Fish** · 07-18-2012, 03:32 PM

A gem in the rough.
Came across this after trudging through the mud all day today at War & Peace show,made it worthwhile,just!

Attached Files

**Military** · 07-18-2012, 03:39 PM

Jon,

I saw this as well but wanted a mintier one.
Glad it has gone to a good home.

Mil

**Jon Fish** · 07-18-2012, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Military View Post

Jon,

I saw this as well but wanted a mintier one.
Glad it has gone to a good home.

Mil

Wow, you should have grabbed it,you won't see another for a while....

**Military** · 07-18-2012, 03:44 PM

Wanted to, Jon, but focus i must.

Not on the top list of things I wanted i guess, but yourself being more of a political guy would definitely not give it a miss.
There was only one fake BO that I saw in a plastic wrap. Did you come across that?

I betcha Erich S. will send you his congratulatory words shortly. : )

Mil

**Military** · 07-18-2012, 03:48 PM

Jon,

by the way it would be nice to put that badge you got with the porcelain one you're selling together,
and ah, together with that Coburg guest-book that was offered on Hermann as well.

Mil

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