Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Leroy]

I welcome any proof you can provide that this "softening" attitude you describe led to renewed factory production (including new die-striking), in Lüdenscheid, of Nazi military awards with swastika in the immediate postwar years.

[Andreas Klein]

Leroy hit it on the nail. Lowering the efforts to find an individuall nazi is a different thing than allowing firms an industrial production of nazi symbols in public.

Btw when did the british trrops calm down? In June 1946 ...

Based on an official allied report it happend around april 1948 when british military forces started to transfer the denazification work to land goverments.

[Andreas Klein]

Here is the official note that the british program ended in January 1948 .... and than continued by german "Spruchkammern".

[DBRoyal]

I welcome any proof you can provide that this "softening" attitude you describe led to renewed factory production (including new die-striking), in Lüdenscheid, of Nazi military awards with swastika in the immediate postwar years.

It is not about proof, but about whether it was possible or not given the location, capabilities and overall situation. The best conclusion one can come to is that it was not impossible. It is unlikely you will be able to establish anything further with certainty.

[DBRoyal]

Here is the official note that the british program ended in January 1948 .... and than continued by german "Spruchkammern".

Andreas,

You can cite statues and laws, but as in every country there are laws and then there is enforcement. You might want to consider how much interest Germans in 1948 would have had in zealous denazification.

[Leroy]

It is not about proof, but about whether it was possible or not given the location, capabilities and overall situation. The best conclusion one can come to is that it was not impossible. It is unlikely you will be able to establish anything further with certainty.

I'm sorry, but I do not accept that, especially when we have been hearing for years the defintive and affirmative statements that production continued on from the end of the war as if nothing had happened. It is about proof, and when "the rubber hits the road", it is quite apparent now that the proponents of this line cannot support it.

[Andreas Klein]

Andreas,

You can cite statues and laws, but as in every country there are laws and then there is enforcement. You might want to consider how much interest Germans in 1948 would have had in zealous denazification.

I'm german, i had a grandpa fighting in russia and beeing POW in the US and French zone and i can tell you what kind of interest he had in 1948 to re-buy one of his awards: NO interest ...

Simply have a look how the every day ratio on food looked for him and the typical german in 1948 - they had for sure other problems than the question: where can i buy a new iron cross.

It's interesting that the archives of the imperial war museum is full of photos and documents of everyday life and denazification but there is not a single hint that the output of knight crosses in Lüdenscheid had been thousends in 1946.

You are saying that the german industrial award production never stopped - so why it is impossible for you or anyone else who supports this to show a photo or document when it comes to the area 1945 - 1950?

[John R.]

One Piece at a Time

Sung to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHniL8MyMM

One Piece at a Time (Johnny Cash version)

Translated from the German version


Well, I left Dresden back in '39
An' went to S&L workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' frames on cores.

Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was shiny and black.

One day in ‘47 I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak the pieces out of there in a lunchbox in my hand

Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me crosses worth at least a hundred grand.

[CHORUS]
I got the crosses one piece at a time
And it didn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town

I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only BMW around.

So the very next day when I punched in
With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends
I left that day with a lunch box and a frame

Now, I never considered myself a thief
S&L wouldn't miss just one little piece
Especially if I strung it out over several years.

The second day I got me a core
And the next day I got me a ribbon from the surplus store
Then I got me a machine to make the frost look real

The little things I could get in my big lunchbox
Like fake sports badges, Spanish crosses and SS socks
But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's VW bug.

Now, up to now my plan went all right
'Til we tried to put the Knights Cross all together one night
And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong.

The frame was a '53
And the core turned out to be a '63
And when we tried to press it the lineup holes were gone.

So we drilled it out so that it would fit
With a little bit of help from a dealer’s adaptor kit
We had that cross looking like a song

Now the reverse was another sight
We had to make it right
And when we sold it to a green GI, he said it made his night.

The front looked kinda funny too
But we put it together and when we got thru
Well, that's when we noticed that we only had half a swaz

About that time my wife walked out
And I could see in her eyes that she had her doubts
But she opened the door and said "Honey, just sell it to a WAF guru”

So we drove up town just to get the barter cigs
And I headed right down to the GI digs
I could hear my German friends laughin' for blocks around

But up there at WAF they didn't make a sound
'Cause to talk about it took the whole mod staff and 20 clowns
And when they got through the thread weighed sixty pounds.

[CHORUS]

I got the crosses one piece at a time
And it didn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town

I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only BMW around.

[Typed in an email]

Ugh! Yow,
This is Stoked on Crosses, Frosty 45
Come on

Huh, This is Frosty 45, Go

Frosty, how much for that Cross and how much did you pay for it?


This is Frosty, negatory on the cost of my minty cross
You might say I went right up to the factory
And picked it up, it's cheaper that way

Uh, Frosty, what model is it?

Well, it's a 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58 period cross

It’s a 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68 period German cross

[Chet Sowersby]

LOL!

Chet

[Nick Carraway]

John, that is probably the single greatest thing EVER posted on the WAF

[Thomas Durante]

EXCELLENT John!!!

Tom

[Leroy]

Thank God someone who does not collect RK's has a sense of humor about this.

(Of course, it does affect collectors of virtually every other badge or medal made by S&L or any other maker in Ludenscheid...)

[Bob Hritz]

So, are going to have new classifications? I suggest the following:

Wartime originals delivered to the PK

Wartime originals from left over stock

Original materials left over from original stock parts

Original materials combined with post-war parts

Mostly original combined with less than 1/2 post-war parts

Somewhat original combined with more than one half post-war parts

Vaguely original with at least one war-time part

Post-war production on original dies with post-war produced hardware

Post war production with less than 1/2 newly created, non wartime die, produced parts

Post war production on newly created dies with less than 1/2 original die produced parts

Post-war production with at least one original die produced part

Post-war production on post-war dies with all post-war parts

This can be further subdivided by the finish as each catagory, other than the first two would haveto be classified into the following sub catagories:

Finished with wartime produced surplus finish

Finished with more than one half wartime produced surplus finish

Finished with less than one half wartime produced surplus finish

Finished with some small amount of wartime produced surplus finish

Finished with post-war finish made to wartime standards by original maker

Finished with post-war finish close to wartime standards by new maker

Finished with post-war finish to new standards by new maker

Then, a further subdivision of the makers themselves. Each badge, medal, or item should be classified as being made by the originals maker, original subcontractor, made by a company who made originql production but obtained dies post war, for products they did not make wartime, made by original makers with post-war dies dies for items they made wartime, made by non-wartome makers on original dies, and made by non-wartime makers on post war dies.

Of course, we can further classify standards of riviting, soldering, and assembly to various standards.

I can imagine a war merit medal or mother's cross with a three page description. I can imagine numbering system can be devised with a simple code book, not larger than an encyclopedia. Soon to follow would be an app created so with only 15 or 20 minutes, the numbering system can be decoded using your laptop or communication device.

Sometimes, I am glad that I am old.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Think of the book-writing opportunities, Bob! Full chapters on each and every one
of the "types" you mentioned, followed by revisions and supplements (like Medicaid and Medicare regulations). What a blessing to the economy! We'll needs thousands of new photographs, so sales of cameras will go up. Whole forests will be reduced to dirt to create the needed paper. What trees not consumed for that can be turned into shelving to hold all the books, supplements, etc.. Sales of ink will skyrocket. The possibilities are simply endless! This thread will be regarded as the starting point of the new economic recovery...

On the other hand, maybe we can just say "looks good" or "looks bad"....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Are you working on such a book already?

I stick, as always, to the good old rule:

Pre May 8 1945: good
Post May 8 1945: fake
and:
don't know, but don't try to make it either good or bad, but be very careful!