Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Leroy]

Exactly so, Gábor, and we will find out more. It is so important, as we go, to be careful.

[Brian S]

Much is misleading in this thread.

[DBRoyal]

No Brian ... reality in germany of postwar was much harder. Reality had been headlines in newspapers declaring people in public as Nazis and a questionarie with 132 questions to test what kind of nazi you had been:

Unless you were a rocket scientist. :-)

[DBRoyal]

For sure and you have it ... so show me your documents and photos proving all the stuff from the Bundesarchiv and the Impertial War museum is nuts and show me your LDO shops of 1947 where german and allied soldiers bought their knights crosses.

Interesting discussion. Life was hard in 1945-46 Germany, but there were variations and some people, as always, as more adept than others in finding ways to survive and even thrive in adversity. Also, one has to consider possible differences in how de-nazification laws were applied/enforced in the different occupation zones. It is a fact that laws and enforcement were less stringent in the British zone than in the American one and the requirement to fill out the question form more limited. Wasn't S&L located in the British zone?

Some information that might help put the whole question in perspective is also difficult to establish---the volume of wartime production that remained after the war's end. I suspect that, even for the higher decorations, there was quite substantial unused wartime production remaining.

[Robert T.]

. Wasn't S&L located in the British zone?

From an old thread....
Cheers,
Robert

The historical reality is that the Belgians wanted their own "Zone" of occupation, but the other "big Allies" did not want to give them one and, at the Potsdam Conference, Belgium was shuffled away. Perhaps because Belgium was a small country, or perhaps because the bulk of Belgian forces, after training, did not arrive back in mainland Europe until after combat operations were concluded, it was treated as a "second class" citizen of the community, not deserving of a "zone" of its own (even though some Belgian forces had fought very bravely and very usefully in later war ground combat operations). This did not go over well with the Belgians, who had looked forward (and believed they deserved) some measure of "payback" for the horrors inflicted on their country by the Germans. (As you mentioned in an earlier post, Belgians troops were sometimes extremely harsh on German prisoners - to the extent, as reported on one of your referenced sites, that their commander had to caution them against shooting them.)

The British, who were a bit "thin" on forces (Canadian and other Commonwealth forces having largely returned home), wanted to devote their major efforts to coastal areas which afforded port access (such as Hamburg), so the British cut off a "slice" of the British Zone (which included Ludenscheid and other areas as well) and, knowing that the Belgians were not "soft on Nazis", used the Belgians to cover it. This somewhat pacified the Belgians and at the same time "freed up" more British troops for use elsewhere. This did not, however, take place all at once. Both British and Belgian forces were in Ludenscheid in June, 1945, and, fairly rapidly over time, the number of British forces greatly decreased and the number of Belgian forces greatly increased. The Belgians did not "officially" establish a headquarters there until October, 1946, when the I Belgian Corps took over the Yser Barracks. From 1946 to the late 40's, the Belgians were, in fact, the primary "occupiers" of Ludenscheid. The British did not completely disappear, since it was still the British Zone and the Belgians derived their only authority under the Allied Control Commisssion through the British. By the very early 1950's, the British were more evident again in the area and had units stationed nearby. (On a sidenote, take a look on the internet at the obituary of Ingo Prosser, a well-known British cameraman for the BBC who died last month at the age of 61. He was born in 1950 in Ludenscheid, where his father was serving with the British Army.) The occupation did conclude in 1955 and the British were still in evidence when it happened, even though Belgian troops had, in fact, "filled in" for them to a very large degree for several years.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Leroy]

In that old thread, Robert T. was the 'driving force' to make sure that the role of the Belgian forces with the British during occupation was properly explained.

[Thomas Durante]

Much is misleading in this thread.

How so Brian?

I don't think Andreas's photos and paperwork are made up, and that they actually happened. Just as I don't doubt what your family's experience was and that Germany was a barter economy in the immediate postwar period with a thriving black market (up to 1950). I think both points of view are correct. Some parts of Germany were devastated and there are plenty of accounts of German civilians being walked through concentration camps and being shamed. I can imagine people in these areas wanted nothing to do with swastikas or any reminder of Hitler's Germany.

On the other hand, you had other areas of Germany that were barely affected by the war, no bombing took place but life was still tough with no currency in place and lack of supplies. Under a barter economy as your family witnessed (and there is also no doubt about this until 1950), there was just a finite number of things that are "leftover" from the war to be used to trade. When those run out, people could either create new stuff to trade with or starve to death. It was as simple as that, people did what they had to do to survive.

Tom

[Nick Carraway]

Well said Tom

[DBRoyal]

From an old thread....
Cheers,
Robert





[IMG][/IMG]

Thanks. That is an example of what makes this forum so interesting!

[Brian S]

Thats right tom it was a mixed up world where proclamations were one thing on paper and reality was something else. Not hard to imagine if you can think outside a paper box.

[Brian S]

That paper box are all these proclamations and decrees which had little impact on everyday survival in a bombed out world.

[Leroy]

For some perspective, the Belgian area was about 1/4" of the lower left side of the British Zone shown in green on the map at the top.

[Andreas Klein]

Two films by the US army for their soldiers showing the immediate postwar opinion on germany:

1945: Your Job in Germany

1946: The Occupation Soldier

[DBRoyal]

Thats right tom it was a mixed up world where proclamations were one thing on paper and reality was something else. Not hard to imagine if you can think outside a paper box.

That, and the differing laws and degrees of enforcement in the different occupation zones.

[DBRoyal]

For some perspective, the Belgian area was about 1/4" of the lower left side of the British Zone shown in green on the map at the top.

While the Belgians got a small area, doesn't it seem fair to say that the British were the ones calling most of the shots. Also, if you read some of the memos and reports in the US State Department Archives, the British were the occupying power most supportive of a quick closing of the books on the war and denazification activity. Outside of the apprehension and prosecution of the very top Nazi leaders, the British had little enthusiasm for doing much else.