Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Dietrich Maerz]

This Morgenthau-Plan thing is really strange. I have no idea who wrote the English Wikipedia entry, but the German Wikipedia is completely different (and correct):

"Das Memorandum wurde im August 1944 im US-Finanzministerium erstellt und durch eine Indiskretion am 21. September 1944 in den USA veröffentlicht. US-Präsident Franklin D. Roosevelt verwarf den Entwurf nach einigen Wochen; er gelangte nie in ein konkretes Planungsstadium und war nie zur politischen Realisierung vorgesehen."

It clearly states that Roosevelt dismissed the plan and the proposal never even entered into a concrete planing stage.

The Volkswagenwerk, which was of course heavily bombed, is a perfect example that such a plan was never in force: 1000 VWs build in one month: March 1946! Not even one year after the war's end.

[Leroy]

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

Maybe the Nazis infiltrated the U.S. Wikipedia (or maybe the Greens infiltrated the German Wikipedia). Maybe neither can be believed 100% (like everything else).

[Brian S]

Damn germans churchill kill 700,000 civilians and they just won't quit. but he missed my mom.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is another interesting fact of which I was not aware of and this thread made me look into this aspect (source Wikipedia) closer:

"Trotz der schwierigen Ausgangslage nach der bedingungslosen Kapitulation im Jahre 1945 waren im Gebiet der späteren Bundesrepublik anders als etwa im Hinblick auf großstädtischen Wohnraum etwa 80 bis 85 Prozent der Produktionskapazitäten unzerstört geblieben. Die Gesamtkapazitäten nach dem Krieg übertrafen sogar jene des letzten Friedensjahres 1938.[5] Auch das Straßen- und Schienennetz war nur punktuell stark zerstört: die zahlreichen Unterbrechungen durch zerstörte Brücken und Knotenpunkte konnten relativ schnell behoben werden."

"Despite the initial difficult position after the unconditional surrender in the year 1945, 80 to 85 % of the production capability in the area of the later Federal Republic of Germany was not destroyed, other than the situation in the greater cities living spaces. The total capacity after the war was greater than in the last peace year 1938. Also the street and railroad network was only selectively destroyed, the numerous interruptions due to destroyed bridges and intersections could be removed relatively fast."

The previous photos posted by Andreas enforce this point. The living spaces in the greater and medium cities were pretty much destroyed. However, only 15-20% of the overall industry was affected. Maybe the fairly good shape of the industry was a result of the concentrated "area bombing" strategy of Air Marshal A. Harris.

For me it was interesting to learn that the German industry was NOT destroyed, not even close! Hardly a 20% dent.

[Brian S]

Timmler loaned me several books. Bomber command was concentrating on homes and living space to wipe out the german race. Usaaf was going daylight raids to hit industrial targets. Bomber harris night raids on city centers.

[Leroy]

"For me it was interesting to learn that the German industry was NOT destroyed, not even close! Hardly a 20% dent."


It depends entirely on where you were. We already all know that Lüdenscheid was completely untouched.

There is a reason the U.S. "Strategic Bombing Survey" compiled after the war was called the "Strategic Bombing Survey". (The British system was not the same.)

P.S. I wouldn't believe the 20% figure for a minute, unless you are are talking about complete destruction.

[Andreas Klein]

1000 VWs build in one month: March 1946! Not even one year after the war's end.

And how many of them came with a swaz and looked like the fomer "Kübelwagen"? I can clearly spot some differences between wartime and postwar production ...

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

That article contradicts itself:

"Rejection of the plan[edit]
Anthony Eden expressed his strong opposition to the plan and, with the support of some others, was able to get the Morgenthau Plan set aside in Britain. In the U.S., Hull argued that nothing would be left to Germany but land, and only 60% of the Germans could live off the land, meaning 40% of the population would die.[36] Stimson expressed his opposition even more forcefully to Roosevelt. According to Stimson, the President said that he just wanted to help Britain get a share of the Ruhr and denied that he intended to fully deindustrialize Germany. Stimson replied, "Mr. President, I don't like you to dissemble to me" and read back to Roosevelt what he had signed. Struck by this, Roosevelt said he had "no idea how he could have initialed this".[37] The theory that Roosevelt was not truly rejecting the plan, just postponing the decision until a more propitious time is supported by Eleanor Roosevelt, who states that she never heard him disagree with the basics of the plan, and who believed that "the repercussions brought about by the press stories made him feel that it was wise to abandon any final solution at that time."[38] ......

On 10 May 1945 President Truman approved JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff policy) 1067 which directed the U.S. forces of occupation in Germany to "...take no steps looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany [nor steps] designed to maintain or strengthen the German economy". The net effect was that Germany wasn't allowed to realistically produce goods for export in order to purchase food; millions of Germans were supplied only meager starvation rations, with 1947 being the worst year. It took two years (1945 to 1947) of death and disease, and fears that starving Germans might "go Communist" before U.S. Secretary of State James F. Byrnes made his Stuttgart speech. Byrnes had some questionable history: he agreed at Potsdam in July 1945 to "temporarily assign" an area of southern Silesia to "Polish Administration" which was more than the Poles and Soviets had expected to be agreed to. The British were not happy with Mr. Byrnes's maneuver.[citation needed]

Dismantling of (West) German industry ended in 1951, but "industrial disarmament" lingered in restrictions on actual German steel production, and production capacity, as well as on restriction on key industries. All remaining restrictions were rescinded on May 5, 1955. "The last act of the Morgenthau drama occurred on that date or when the Saar was returned to Germany."[3]"

Maybe both article are "tainted" by certain viepoints. What is not tainted is the factual reality in Germany. Another example: already in 1947 all former Daimler Benz plants were up and running. Plants Gaggenau and Mannheim were manufacturing trucks and busses, the other plants the so-called "Kastenlieferwagen" (1946), among others.

[Dietrich Maerz]

And how many of them came with a swaz and looked like the fomer "Kübelwagen"? I can clearly spot some differences between wartime and postwar production ...

Are you suggesting that Volkswagen and Daimler were faking their production and their production numbers?

The "complete distruction of German industry" seems to be a myth. Also, it seems that from our perspective it sounds unbelievable that Germany could bounce back that fast, but the production numbers and dates are undisputable. Everybody can go to the websites of the companies and read it. Another example:

"The terms of Germany's surrender forbade BMW from manufacturing motorcycles. In 1947, when BMW received permission to restart motorcycle production from US authorities in Bavaria,[11] BMW had to start from scratch. There were no plans, blueprints, or schematic drawings because they were all in Eisenach. Company engineers had to use surviving pre-war motorcycles to copy the bikes. The first post-war BMW motorcycle in Western Germany, a 250 cc R24, was produced in 1948. The R24 was reverse-engineered from the pre-war R23 with some improvements over the R23,[12] and was the only postwar West German BMW without rear suspension. In 1949, BMW produced 9,200 units and by 1950 production surpassed 17,000 units.

[Leroy]

D - Your examples so far have all been in the automotive/vehicle industries. Similarly, great portions of the electrical grid and highway system were intact (although the railway system was not). One has to wonder what plans Western industrialists and magnates had in mind.

Anyway, we are now far afield from the start of this thread. Again, we all already know that Lüdenscheid remained perfectly intact and, as Andreas has shown, dies, hardware and useable parts survived, even in areas which were very hard hit.

[Andreas Klein]

Are you suggesting that Volkswagen and Daimler were faking their production and their production numbers?

Maybe

Everybody can go to the websites of the companies and read it.

And if you reach the websites of former award making firms you will see that not a single one has ever produced an award with a swaz - based on the official history published in the web they weren't in existence from 1933 - 1945.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Anyway, we are now far afield from the start of this thread. Again, we all already know that Lüdenscheid remained perfectly intact and, as Andreas has shown, dies, hardware and useable parts survived, even in areas which were very hard hit.

My last post are only in response to the (possible) assertion that between May 1945 and December 1949 West-Germany was not in a position, due to lack of workers, material, machines, and supplies to produce something - be it a car, a mororcycle or a military badge.
The reality was, that Germany had in 1945 a better production capability than in 1938, and that it was used heavily and that the country rebounced way before 1950.

[Leroy]

According to statements (from records) posted on another forum, S&L had many "foreign workers" by the end of the war (another reason not to talk very much), who (I assume) would have left. And, as Andreas has already said, you have to have:

1. the die
2. the machines
3. the workers
4. the chemistry for the finish
5. the setup

If anything is missing, you will have a problem.

[Dietrich Maerz]

And if you reach the websites of former award making firms you will see that not a single one has ever produced an award with a swaz - based on the official history published in the web they weren't in existence from 1933 - 1945.

Isn't that funny? Here is the website of Otto Klein, Hanau - maker of the Diamonds and of the German Cross in Gold....

And exactly that is why I find it so funny that - on the other side of the coin - it is immediately believed when the current Managing Director of S&L states that the dies were taken away right after the war's end. I don't fault her for saying that, everything else would be financially suicidal.
The point is NOT that S&L (or any other company) produced during the war, the whole of Germany did it. The point is the production after the war! She would do no service to her company by saying: "Oh, we had the dies and we sold leftovers and produced new badges for the souvenir hunters." (as a pure theoretical answer, not an actual quote ....)

[Dietrich Maerz]

If anything is missing, you will have a problem.

Same simplified approach applies to cars (or I would say even more since a car requires far more machines, supplies, workers, chemistry for the finish, and setup of the manufacturing lines) and it is proven that VW was up an running in March 1946 with all required ingredients. They had huge amounts of foreign workers and so had nearly all other companies.

I would think that any Lüdenscheid company could recall the ladies (shown in post 227, as an examplel) to do some work. A nation that could build cars 10 months after the surrender could certainly produce some badges if they wanted to do so. Just as Deschler did in 1946 already.
As you said, Lüdenschied was not destroyed, makes it even easier. I cannot see how the rest of Germany was cranking out high level production goods and in Lüdenscheid they were not doing anything ..... very unlikely!