Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Andreas Klein]

For this to be true Gentry, we would need a good, confirmable database of no-doubt, 100% verifiable originals and a similar database of no-doubt, 100% verifiable postwar-produced badges to make a logical comparison.

... and it is sad to say: exactly this is impossible.

As you perhaps remember from the Rettenmaier thread we bought in 2013 the leftovers from the firm which supplied Deschler with their setups and this year i was shown the original wartime tools from Deschler in a private collection.

Now bring this together:

Someone has the Deschler tools and stamps a badge with them and solders their setup on the badge.

Would there be any chance for us to recognize the postwar strike?

- badge design and die flaws like accepted pieces?: correct
- typical Deschler setup: correct

Conclusion: every rule we constructed in the past about the look and feel of a Deschler badge would say yes to the badge but the sad true is a no.

... and now go back to 1951:

- tools and machines used in the war were still present
- the workers which handeled them during the war were still working in the firms
- supply lines for setups, paint and so on were intact and could supply the same quality as in the war
- the market was demanding stuff as good as the originals from the war

result: postwar stuff in wartime quality ... and to be honest the words "no doubt" is some sort of wishfull thinking. See attached a price list dated 1956 from the retail seller Sedlazek with the handwritten note "originals as awarded or in my words postwar stuff in wartime quality.

[Leroy]

For this to be true Gentry, we would need a good, confirmable database of no-doubt, 100% verifiable originals and a similar database of no-doubt, 100% verifiable postwar-produced badges to make a logical comparison.

And if there are "reproduction in wartime quality" (being, it is said, the first postwar production, made, of course, on wartime dies and likely assembled by remaining wartime workers) you will NEVER have this database. (P.S. Just saw Andreas' post and he beat me to this conclusion!)

I still maintain that there are NO "reproduction in wartime quality" (and that there was no new production between May, 1945 and @1950).

[Dietrich Maerz]

The post-war "935" B-Types from S&L are certainly of "wartime quality" and where made post war, early post-war IMHO. A notion that is accepted as a fact by many, including this dealer.

[Leroy]

"Assembled from leftover parts" - I suppose you agree with this, too?

[Andreas Klein]

The post-war "935" B-Types from S&L are certainly of "wartime quality" and where made post war, early post-war IMHO. A notion that is accepted as a fact by many, including this dealer.

To be honest i do not share the opinion of this COA which has imo gone the easy way similiar to the one which declares every L15 marked badge of any type to postwar stuff. It isn't the ultima ratio it's just - as decribed in the COA - the point of view of a certain person and misses any real evidence.

For sure this is a conclusion which is supported by many collectors because it is the easy rule we want to believe in ... every badge looking like this i good and every bage looking like that is bad.

But the true is more difficult and i'm sure that we can have a hours of hot tempered disussions on the 935 loop subject and the L15 subject as well.

So we should leave it out of this more overall basic discussion.

[Dietrich Maerz]

This was not about the loop, it was about the wartime quality ....

[Thomas Durante]

I still maintain that there are NO "reproduction in wartime quality" (and that there was no new production between May, 1945 and @1950).

And others will continue to maintain production could have continued immediately after the war and certainly by 1950.

There are quite a bit of advertisements and articles shown here proving there was a demand for swastika-bearing materials by 1950, and the important question still remains of when exactly did firms such as S&L & Souval create new dies to produce items that they didn't produce during the war? If S&L didn't produce the Antipartisan badge during the war, how long did it take them to decide to make a die for it so they could sell it postwar? Was it is 1946 or was it in 1950? That is the critical question here. We may never be able to tell if a badge was produced in 1944 versus 1946, but there is still hope in finding out if certain firms created certain badges during the war.....or was this certain badge only produced postwar.

Badges like the flatback Antipartisan, S&L Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge, etc. hang in the balance. These badges are on S&L barter boards, so it is logical to think they were probably around at the end of the war. However, if we can see that there was a large demand for badges of all sorts, then there is incentive for firms like S&L (and others) to create dies for badges they never made in the war (such as the Grand Cross, or Spanish Cross, or Golden Oaks and Swords, etc.). It has been argued that the average common souvenier-hungry GI wouldn't care about the difference between an Antipartisan badge and a common tank badge, so there was no need for firms like S&L to create new dies immediately after the war. But these documents and advertisements show that the demand was not only from souvenier hungry GIs, but also to returning soldiers, collectors and museums. In light of that, its not hard to imagine firms create new dies to supply the demand.......and certainly by 1950. I can't imagine all these firms and advertisements popping up all at once spontaneously. As Andreas says, and i agree with....it was likely going on for a while and people looked the other way. It was a way to make money, they had plenty of time after the war and they had the tools and the know how.

Tom

[Leroy]

It's fine to talk about topics such as when a particular die came into existence or when or if it was used by a particular firm, but this notion of immediate postwar "reproduction in wartime quality" will destroy overall collector confidence. Once this box is opened, no one will ever be able to close it. To my mind, it is wrong and it is dangerous, and despite objections and soothing words, is irreparable.

[Norm F]

Many collectors have known for decades that some of their items in their collection might be postwar produced, especially the minty stuff...and especially when it comes to S&L badges. But as far as I can tell, that has never really been a deterrent, and minty badges only continue to climb in price and demand.

Threads like this bring us closer to the truth, and I for one am glad for it. That should always be our goal, no matter how it affects our collections. I have many badges in my collection, many from S&L that I am quite sure are postwar products. As disappointing as that is, I would rather know the truth about them and there is always the continued enjoyment of trying to find ways of telling wartime-made badges from postwar produced examples.

Tom

I agree completely with Tom's statement above.

The exact date of new production, whether 1948 or 1950, strikes me as largely irrelevant and only distracts from the bigger issue of the simple existence of "reproductions of wartime quality" at all. It would be nice if they didn't exist, but I fear that's a romanticized notion. And the nuance of whether a product was assembled and finished from wartime leftovers in the post-war period or rather a mixture of wartime and post-war produced components, although very interesting to study and ponder, does not mean they aren't both post-war products -- just that one may be more visible.

No one has trouble considering that Souval made products in the early post-war period (even though these too were probably largely dealing with assembly of wartime leftovers initially). That's the basis for referring to good-looking examples as "wartime compatible" rather than assuming them to be wartime. Germany and Austria in 1950 represented a combined population of about 75 million and area of some 330,000 square kilometres -- it can only be considered naive to think that Souval's practise was unique in that large arena, and S&L is possibly just one other addition to the "tip of the iceberg", as the Knoth article suggests.

It doesn't kill the hobby but certainly makes it more challenging and nuanced for those who care about such things, and there's nothing like a good challenge to stimulate the hobbyist.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

It doesn't kill the hobby but certainly makes it more challenging and nuanced for those who care about such things, and there's nothing like a good challenge to stimulate the hobbyist.

It will be fun going to shows with 100 attendees.

[Norm F]

More translation:

"Auf alle Wünsche gefaßt ist der branchenkundige Geschäftsinhaber. Der Tabakverkauf ist nur ein Notgeschäft, seit Jahrzehnten betreibt Herr Knoth (oben) und seine Familie den Militäreffekten-Handel. Das silberne Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse (ohne Schwerter), das er einem Kunden anbietet, ist ein sehr gefragter Artikel. In seinem Zigarrenkisten hat Herr Knoth alle Auszeichnungen vorrätig: da liegen Spanienkreuze, Eiserne Kreuze, Sturm- und Tätigkeitsabzeichen aller Waffengattungen, Nahkampfspangen, Ostmedaillen und die dazugehörigen Ordensbänder. Die Kunden sind in der Regel jüngere Leute; sie müssen das Recht zum Tragen der gewünschten Auszeichnung durch ein ordnungsgemäßes Soldbuch oder durch ein Dokument ("Im Namen des Führers und Obersten Befehlshabers der Wehrmacht...") nachweisen. Ohne Urkunde gibt Herr Knoth keinen Orden heraus. Ubrigens werden nur "Original-Orden" verlangt. Die Absicht der Bundesregierung, Auszeichnungen des zweiten Weltkrieges ohne Hakenkreuz zuzulassen, lehnen die meisten Kunden ab. Immer wieder sagen sie zu Knoth: "Wir wollen unsere Orden so, wie wir sie uns verdient haben!"

"The industry-savvy shopkeeper is prepared for all requests. The tobacco selling is only a trade in time of need; for decades Mr. Knoth (above) and his family have operated a military effects business. The silver War Merit Cross 1st class (without swords) that he offers a client is a highly sought after item. In his cigar boxes Mr. Knoth has all the awards available: there are Spanish Crosses, Iron Crosses, assault and activity badges of all military service branches, close combat clasps, Ostmedaillen (Russian Front Medals) and the associated ribbons. The customers are generally younger people; they must prove their right to wear the desired award by means of a proper pay book (Soldbuch) or a document ("In the name of the Führer and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces ..."). Without a certificate Mr. Knoth issues no awards. Incidentally, only "original orders” are desired. The intention of the federal government to allow awards of World War II only without swastika, most customers reject. Again and again they to say Knoth: "We want our medals as we have earned them!”

[Legion Condor]

I agree completely with Tom's statement above.

The exact date of new production, whether 1948 or 1950, strikes me as largely irrelevant and only distracts from the bigger issue of the simple existence of "reproductions of wartime quality" at all. It would be nice if they didn't exist, but I fear that's a romanticized notion. And the nuance of whether a product was assembled and finished from wartime leftovers in the post-war period or rather a mixture of wartime and post-war produced components, although very interesting to study and ponder, does not mean they aren't both post-war products -- just that one may be more visible.

No one has trouble considering that Souval made products in the early post-war period (even though these too were probably largely dealing with assembly of wartime leftovers initially). That's the basis for referring to good-looking examples as "wartime compatible" rather than assuming them to be wartime. Germany and Austria in 1950 represented a combined population of about 75 million and area of some 330,000 square kilometres -- it can only be considered naive to think that Souval's practise was unique in that large arena, and S&L is possibly just one other addition to the "tip of the iceberg", as the Knoth article suggests.

It doesn't kill the hobby but certainly makes it more challenging and nuanced for those who care about such things, and there's nothing like a good challenge to stimulate the hobbyist.

Best regards,
---Norm

Exactly what you write is my opinion, it does not really matter when it was, but that it is so.

I always try to hand the system to find the copy. This will only work if you can compare and villeicht lucky enough to find fault in the system which can then pursue.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Leroy]

Norm - Thanks very much for this additional translation.

I have yet to see anything beyond opinion that the first postwar production was, in fact, both immediately postwar and "in wartime quality".

For people who supposedly pride themselves in acting only upon established and proven fact, you have today demonstrated how far afield you have travelled. I really do not think you fully appreciate the consequences of the positions you are taking.

[Norm F]

more:

"Ein paar Meter Ordensband werden von Herrn Knoth mit der Elle abgemessen. Kriegervereine und Soldatenbünde, aber auch private Vereinigungen, bestellen die Bänder zu den Kriegsauszeichnungen häufig meterweise. Sie sind in schmaler Ausführung für Spangen, und breit für das Knopfloch vorrätig. Die verkaufte Ware stammt nicht etwa aus Lagerbeständen, sondern wurde erst nach Kriegsende geliefert, wie die Rechnungsbelege ausweisen. In einem Aktendeckel verwahrt Herr Knoth unter anderem Rechnungen für Ordensbänder aus der Kettwiger Seidenbandweberei Heinrich Nierhaus, einer Filialfirma der größten westdeutschen Militärtuchfabrik Scheidt. Ausgegangene Artikel werden von den Herstellerfirmen meist binnen vier Wochen nachgeliefert.
Manchmal schickt Herr Knoth die Kunden auch selbst zu seinem Hauptlieferanten Steinhauer und Lück nach Lüdenscheid (diese Firma stellt auch die neuen Verdienstorden der westdeutschen Bundesrepublik her). Die Preise für die Auszeichnungen sind heute allerdings erheblich höher als im Kriege. Teilweise sind sie um 100 Prozent gestiegen, und für die Interessenten bedeutet die Neuanschaffung ihrer Orden oft ein schweres finanzielles Opfer, das vielen unverständlich ist. Mancher Kunde, der sich sein Ritterkreuz vom Munde abspart, beklagt sich bitter, daß er den ihm einst zuteil gewordenen Dank des Vaterlandes heute teuer bezahlen muß."

"A few meters of medal ribbon are measured by Mr. Knoth with the measuring stick. War veteran clubs and soldiers leagues, but also private organizations, order the ribbons to the war decorations often by the meter. They are available in a narrow version for ribbon bars (Spangen) and wide for the buttonhole. The sold goods do not come from inventory, but rather were not delivered until after the war, as documented by accounting receipts. In a folder, among other things, Mr. Knoth stores bills for ribbons from the Kettwiger silk ribbon weaver Heinrich Nierhaus, a branch company of the largest West German military cloth factory Scheidt. Sold-out articles will be restocked by the manufacturing companies usually within four weeks.
Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends the customers themselves to his main supplier Steinhauer and Lück in Lüdenscheid (this company also makes the new Order of Merit of the West German Federal Republic). The prices for the awards are now, however, significantly higher than during the war. Some of them have risen by 100 percent, and for those interested, the new acquisition of their order often means a heavy financial sacrifice, which is incomprehensible to many. Many a customer who scrimps and saves for his Knights Cross complains bitterly that he today has to pay dearly for what formerly was the bestowed gratitude of the fatherland."

[Norm F]

and more:

"99 lieferbare Orden kann Herr Knoth seinen Kunden anbieten. Das Ritterkreuz, das er eben sorgfältig einem Kunden anpaßt (oben), kostet in der einfachsten Ausführung laut Preisliste (links) 14.50 DM, allerdings nur bei einer Mindestabnahme von 20 Stück. Im Einzelverkauf beträgt sein Preis 19 DM, und für die "echte" Ausführung mit Silberumrandung müßte der Herr im Ledermantel 32 DM bezahlen. Die Preisliste enthält neben Kriegsauszeichnungen auch Mutterkreuze aller Klassen und Erinnerungsmedaillen. Die Einzelpreise hat Herr Knoth auf der Liste neben den Engros-Preisen handschriftlich notiert."

"99 available medals Mr. Knoth can offer his customers. The Knight's Cross, which he carefully adapts to a customer (above), according to the price list (left) costs in the simplest form 14.50 DM, but only with a minimum purchase of 20 pieces. Sold individually, its price is 19 DM, and for the "real" version with silver frame the gentleman in the leather jacket would have to pay 32 DM. The price list, in addition to war decorations, contains mother crosses of all classes and commemorative medals. The unit prices Mr. Knoth noted in handwriting on the list next to the wholesale prices."