Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Robert T.]

The picture resolution is quite small but I believe that this is a page from the 1953 REVUE article showing Herr Knoth?

Robert

[speedytop]

Hi Leroy,

now I know "your" timeframe, thanks.

It is interesting, that after my inquiry you change from "... no one has EVER been able to prove new die striking by S&L itself in the immediate postwar years." to "... earlier new strikings and new production of military pieces by S&L."!

The REVUE magazine is in the at that time usual dimensions 27cm x 36cm for one page. Therefore I have only scanned the part of the Ordensband. The red line is added by me, to separate the "Ordensbänder" from the "Auszeichnungen".



These badges are not "military pieces", but they are related.
Both miniature sports badge are marked with St&L in the same way, the design is identically up to the complete swastika or the bow (Schleife) with the "tip" as relict of the top of the swastika. The next and last design is without the "tip" (not shown here).



And I can show you another progression of sports badges in the original size. The badge with the swastika is without a maker mark, but I'm mostly sure, that both badges were made by St&L.
The design on the reverse is identically!




The last badges shown here are definitely made in your "immediate postwar years", since 1948/1949, made and marked by St&L. Have a look on the needle systems!




Hi Robert,

this is the in Germany well known Trizonesien Song (1948):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24zmxUw6dcQ

Uwe

[Robert T.]

Hi Robert,

this is the in Germany well known Trizonesien Song (1948):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24zmxUw6dcQ

Uwe

Thanks,

~Even Goethe comes from Trizonesia~

Cheers,
Robert

[Leroy]

Hello, Uwe,

Yes, I indeed did change my wording to be more precise, in direct response to previous encounters you and I have had on this forum. My main focus has always been, and in my mind I was always addressing, only the new striking and new manufacture of military pieces, not sports pieces (which I am afraid are not my area of interest, as they are yours), as you have previously indicated that sports badges were specifically reauthorized in the late 1940's. I deferred to your knowledge in that area and believe it is a distraction not worth "re-inventing the wheel" for here.

I have no idea what you think the examples you show here prove about anything. Clearly, the miniature without swastika was produced from the die used to produce the swastika version. So what? Previously, when you used these same examples, you claimed that the "ST. & L." mark (built into the die itself) was a mark used by S&L only in postwar years. That lasted about 10 minutes, until another member here showed a wartime RAD cap emblem with the same mark. You were not heard from again for some time thereafter.

I am glad you "blew up" a portion of the article. First, it does reference a time for restocking of ribbons of 4 weeks by the ribbon company. If I misread that to indicate a period of 4 weeks for a customer to wait for an award not in stock (not a ribbon), or erroneously confused it with some other part of the article, then I was incorrect and I am sorry and apologize. I would still, however, like to see the entire article, and I think many others would, too, so we all can get a better "feel" for this. I cannot understand what technical reason would truly prevent you from being reluctant to show it when you clearly have it, unless you just don't want to be inconvenienced. (As a side note, I see that the part you enlarged says that Herr Knoth would "sometimes send customers to his main supplier, Steinhauer and Luck..." Hmmm. His "main supplier", not his "main manufacturing source", as the wording is characterized elsewhere in a reference. Perhaps, though, just another translation mistake on my part....) "Hauptlieferanten" = ??

I answered your request, Uwe. You ignored mine, for whatever reason. I don't think "one way streets" are very useful here. You can go try to play "gotcha" with someone else now (as you routinely do in the 1957 sub-forum, where nice people are attacked by you for speaking too loosely of "'57 pieces" when in fact all they are talking about is an "era" when many different pieces appeared or re-appeared). You and I are done.

For everyone else: I believe Herr Knoth probably sold originals, pieces assembled from leftover parts and perhaps (in 1953) brand new pieces. (he seems to have more KVK material lying around than anything else). The RK shown being awarded to the customer could be a postwar "B" or a wartime "B" or wartime "A" with unfinished ring (they certainly existed). I can't tell for sure and neither, if they are honest, can anyone else. One thing that is very interesting to note is that the ribbon has a black border noticeably more narrow than the white stripes next to it. The standard postwar ribbon used by S&L also had a black border more narrow than the white, BUT it was not this narrow. The overall width of the entire ribbon is appropriate which, in turn, convinces me that the white stripes on this ribbon consist of 30 stitches each, not 25 or 23. I don't know of anyone who has ever seen a 30 stitch ribbon of proper construction which was not original. Perhaps the "if you buy 20, the price goes down" pricelist is correct, but I bet if we could see, up close, what kind of RK that bought you, we would see something which looked pretty nice, but which wouldn't fool a serious collector today for a second.

[Thomas Bendixen]

Thanks all for a very interesting thread

Dietrich, hope this is not a realy stupid question but are the picture you post in post 65 from the article about the tobaco/medal dealer?

Would love to see a readable full version of tha article!

Kr. Thomas

[Brian S]

I have a very narrow tolerance level for S&L due to all the mess over RK's, Reiter bages, etc. So far this has been the only SK from S&L I can tolerate. It's an L/16 with 800. It seem entirely possible that S&L had leftover stock that they stamped with '4' in anticipation of PKZ orders.

[Brian S]

IMHO this piece was not leftover stock as indicated by the L/16 and 800 stamps minus the '4' over stamp.

[Brian S]

Glamour shot... BTW, this is about the nicest silver SK I have ever had the pleasure of owning.

[Brian S]

This is the pin from the bronze piece said to be wartime by Hans Günter. I am not versed on all the various L/16 stamps but am curious if anyone can match this to a wartime piece? If an S&L worker walked off with tools and dies it would not surprise me if he remembered to walk off with an L/16 stamp, but, if the die was sold to someone who only had the die then maybe not. Curious... It certainly does not appear to match the stamp on mine.

The script looks good but I am curious of those more versed in S&L.

Ultimately I am of no desire to argue. People believe what they believe on S&L. Whatever workers might have been able to clear up any controversy are long since dead from the wartime productions.

[Legion Condor]

Hi Brian,

I think this piece for a after war production.
Needle and hinge are not known as an original S & L.
Also, the L/16 stamp is not rich account.

Also the surface I do not like compared to the 100% pieces.

Very early copy for me. I think shortly after the war.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Brian S]

Ha. And yet the center disc to this one far more crisp than the bronze you claim is wartime. Other members have said the L/16 stamp matches other wartime awards. The pin and hinge are a match to wartime S&L EK1's.

Feel free to fire away at this one.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Brian,

i like the design of the L/16 stamp. Imo it matches the L/16 stamp as it was used for the woundbadge production of S&L. I know him from early war tombak badges and mid to late war zink badges.

The only thing which surprises me is the "800" stamp ... from what i know the "800" was only used because of the silver content in a badge - and therefore it is senseless to stamp a zink made badge with such a silver content stamp.

[Brian S]

Hi Brian,

i like the design of the L/16 stamp. Imo it matches the L/16 stamp as it was used for the woundbadge production of S&L. I know him from early war tombak badges and mid to late war zink badges.

The only thing which surprises me is the "800" stamp ... from what i know the "800" was only used because of the silver content in a badge - and therefore it is senseless to stamp a zink made badge with such a silver content stamp.

Zinck???

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Brian,

based and your pictures i thought your badge is made from Zink? Is it a tombak made one?

But to be honest - even on a tombak badge a silver content marking is for me a big question mark.

[Brian S]

Hi Brian,

based and your pictures i thought your badge is made from Zink? Is it a tombak made one?

But to be honest - even on a tombak badge a silver content marking is for me a big question mark.

That's because it is not tombak, it is 800 silver...