West German Helmets

[Bernhard]

Hi bolo

These helmets were made in four different shell sizes.

Regards

Bernhard

[bolo]

Hi bolo

These helmets were made in four different shell sizes.

Regards

Bernhard

thanks Bernhard!

seems hard to find a decent size that will fit a size 60 or bigger, I always find the small sizes.

[myddrcaps]

I got this a few weeks back. It was described as "M40 altered for the police Lower Saxony after 1945"

I belive the helmet shell is a Quist M40 shell. From what I understand Quist placed their maker's mark at the rear skirt some
time in 1942-'43. The rear skirt of this helmet is stamped "DN519" with a very fait "O" or "Q" directly above. Any
size stamp is to faint to read. I'm told "DN" denotes Made in Germany.
Q
DN519

The Liner Pin Holes have been welded closed, the weld then ground clean. Two small rivets hold the chinstrap bales in
place. The dome of helmet has the same screw liner attachment as the M53 helmets. The helmet has been striped and repainted a dark gray.

The liner has similar leather, web strap and metal band components as the one shown in the thread "The first model BGS
Helmet" with the addition of the five fingered dome screw mount of the M53 liners. Instead of the black foam rubber pad
this liner has a felt or fibre pad that was toped with a foam pad that has since turned to dust.

[Gordon Craig]

myddrcaps,

Interesting helmet. Quist made helmets post war and marked them with a Q and this is what you have here. DN does not note "Made in West Germany" specifically. DN is the short form of DIN which is a specification classification for manufactured items made in West Germany. DN519 will denote the type of metal used in the shell, actual composition of the metal used etc.
I am not aware of any police force that used the type of liner shown in your fotos. This liner resembles the late war Luftschutz helmet liners. From what you have said about the modifications to the helmet I suspect it is an early Bundeswehr helmet modified for use with either the Fire service or one of the civil defence organizations that existed in post war Germany. The colour is not one that I recognize as having seen before.
Thanks for posting pictures of your helmet. Always great to see interesting modified helmets.

Regards,

Gordon

[myddrcaps]

rear stamp: Q64 DN541

The helmet markings have the same lay out as the above quote (post count #62 of this thread) which is a m42, mine a m40. The color of the helmet is a dark blue gray. The silver is because of camera flash. The liner is a cross between the liner shown in post #60 and a typical M53 liner.

[Gordon Craig]

myddrcaps,

Thanks for the pictures of the two liners. The liner from your helmet definitely resembles the early BGS helmet liners. While DIN specification did exist during war time I have never heard of a war time helmet having a DN marking in one. Of my post war helmets only the Feuerwehr helmet that I started this thread with has a DIN marking in it and that is DN14940 and that is the DIN NORM for Feuerwehr helmets.
A blue grey helmet would more likely be for the BGS than for police who wore green helmets. However, BGS helmets are usually marked BGS. As for stamping locations, post war helmets were normally maker stamped in the same locations IE at back inside skirt as war time helmets were. I do have one post war helmet that is maker stamped on the inside skirt next to the chin strap. Since the post war helmets specifications were much lower than war time helmets IE in steel hardness etc. it is not unusual for the makers mark to be visible on the other side from where it was stamped.

Regards,

Gordon

[Hugh Zillmann old]

myddrcaps,


A blue grey helmet would more likely be for the BGS than for police who wore green helmets. However, BGS helmets are usually marked BGS.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

That statement surprises me a little. The early BGS helms that I have are both decidely 'green' in colouration. I have one of the early BW springerhelm (like you) and it appears to me to be 'blaugrau', whereas the BGS ones were more greenish in colour (at least to my aged optics). The one and only police helm which I have, by contrast, looks like it's painted in Luftwaffe blaugrau (although it's internal stamping indicates police issue/use). Only one of the BGS helms I have, however, is marked for BGS use (although that may not necessarily be the case, as it's liner is marked "Bund").

A grouping of police field gear which I acquired about 20 years ago is all 'blueish', ie. rucksack; breadbag; breadbag strap and waterbottle (all marked to the Berlin Police and all dated 1962-63).

I don't doubt what you say can be correct, it just doesn't 'tally' with my own experience in this area of collecting.

Regards,

Hugh

[myddrcaps]

Gordon

Thank you for the info and your replies.

It seems there was at least three companies producing helmets in West Germany post war.

- Quist, who's helmets were stamped "Q64" on the side skirt.
- Linnemann&Schnetzer who marked their helmets LS.
- and a companies that stamped their helmets "BVM".

Regarding the "BVM" marked helmets Does any one know the name for this company??

Also where there any other companies producing helmets for the BGS and Police at that time??

As for Quist. They are out of business now?? Does any one know the year they closed??

Thank you. I have many more questions regarding the M53 but those will have to wait for another day.

Cheers.
George

[Gordon Craig]

Hi Gordon,

That statement surprises me a little. The early BGS helms that I have are both decidely 'green' in colouration. I have one of the early BW springerhelm (like you) and it appears to me to be 'blaugrau', whereas the BGS ones were more greenish in colour (at least to my aged optics). The one and only police helm which I have, by contrast, looks like it's painted in Luftwaffe blaugrau (although it's internal stamping indicates police issue/use). Only one of the BGS helms I have, however, is marked for BGS use (although that may not necessarily be the case, as it's liner is marked "Bund").

A grouping of police field gear which I acquired about 20 years ago is all 'blueish', ie. rucksack; breadbag; breadbag strap and waterbottle (all marked to the Berlin Police and all dated 1962-63).

I don't doubt what you say can be correct, it just doesn't 'tally' with my own experience in this area of collecting.

Regards,

Hugh

Hugh,

As soon as I posted my last statement I knew someone would bring up the Berlin Polizei Prasident. Since Berlin was not considered part of West Germany they did their own thing as they saw fit. The Berlin Bereitschaft Polizei did indead wear blue field gear and blue helmets. As well as blue uniforms. Their stuff is often marked P.P. Berlin and sometime unit marked by the individual. My Berlin Polizei helmet is not marked and is decidedly blue very close to my BW Luftwaffe helmets. The BW Luftwaffe wore FJ helmets in both blue and brown. The GSG 9 folkes wore one in a shade of brown as well.
As for markings in BGS helmets, there is always the exception to the rule and some may not have been marked but I believe that the majority of BGS equipment is marked as such. As for colour, I can never say all helmets acquired by the BGS in the early days were always the same colour. Perhaps Klaus can help here. My statement here is just from personal observations over the years.
Must rush off now but will return with come comparison pictures of post war helmet colours later.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gordon

Thank you for the info and your replies.

It seems there was at least three companies producing helmets in West Germany post war.

- Quist, who's helmets were stamped "Q64" on the side skirt.
- Linnemann&Schnetzer who marked their helmets LS.
- and a companies that stamped their helmets "BVM".

Regarding the "BVM" marked helmets Does any one know the name for this company??

Also where there any other companies producing helmets for the BGS and Police at that time??

As for Quist. They are out of business now?? Does any one know the year they closed??

Thank you. I have many more questions regarding the M53 but those will have to wait for another day.

Cheers.
George

George,

Here is a list of those who made helmets in West Germany, at least in the early years.

VDN - Vereingte Deutsche Nickelwerke;
PSL - Paul Schulze, Lubeck;
SH - Schubert-Werke.
Q - F.W. Quist, Esslingen
LS- Linnemann & Schnetzer, Ahlen.

Rommer made some Truppenversuche helmets but I don't know how many.

I don't have any information about the firm of Quist going out og business but I will send an email to my friend Roger Lucy who should have an answer to your question.

The following makers made the inner helmets;

Bebrit Preßtoftwerke, Bebra;
Maury & Co. Offenbach;
Preßwerk, Schwaben;
Hans Römer, Neu-Ulm;
Römmler, Großunstadt;
Schubertwerk K.G., Braunschweig.

Some of the pictures I took earlier today didn't turn out so I will only post a few now and do the rest tomorrow for Hugh.

Here is the markings for VDN.

[Gordon Craig]

The markings for Linnemann & Schnetzer.

[Gordon Craig]

I mentioned earlier that because of the softness of the metal in these helmets the marks were often visible on the outside of the helmet. Here is an example of that.

[Gordon Craig]

The DIN markings in one of my Feurerwehr helmets.

[myddrcaps]

Gordon,

Thank you for all this information! This should keep me busy for a few day!!

Thanks again!

George

[Guardian 5]

myddrcaps - You may want to run a forum search on member "SvenWittnebel".

Sven was a member of the West Berlin Bereischaftpolizei in the early years. I seem to recall a thread published sometime back wherein he described the helmets issued to his organization.

At one point he said that fellow officers with large hat sizes had been issued with refurbished TR helmets. The manner in which they were modified almost exactly matches the description of your helmet as described in your first post. Sven himself received a post-war manufactured M35/53 in blue gray.

I'm not sure if Sven is an active member anymore, but I'm sure his old postings remain in the archives.

The picture below is an old auction photo of an early BGS helmet liner. To me it resembles the interior of a U.S. M-1 helmet liner. The helmet itself was painted olive drab. From what I understand, the very first BGS helmets were all reclaimed TR models and OD was the standard color before Forest Green.

Good luck with your helmet research. Let us know what you find out.

All the best - TJ