Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Brian S]

Hans has posted a photo of a postwar S&L eagle with a distinctive messy bead on his head. That is helpful!

[Dietrich Maerz]

I had a long "rebuttle" prepared but after reading through it again I decided not to post it in order not to continue to answer the childish tactics of "you are bad because you said this and that one day or the other."

Only one more thing: "Production" is NOT defined as running machines, blowing smoke stacks, and bubbling acid baths. It is not subject to the tactics of ""It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" - production has happened when something has been produced, no matter what the level of energy, time, material, supplies, or whatever else has been put into it.

In that firm definition of production I say with utmost confidence and with numerous examples which are sufficient for me that S&L produced very soon after the war and well before 1950.

And Brian is right: as long as all these hard cold facts are on the table regarding the post-war activities and as long there is no definitive proof one way or the other for the current pieces in the gray area, people should not buy them without knowing about it. If they still want to buy, nobody is stopping them. But just because they now own some, does not make them original ... a huge mistake of many collectors!

[Andreas Klein]

But just because they now own some, does not make them original ... a huge mistake of many collectors!

And on the other side not knowing the truth and having a bad feeling on certain things doesn't make a certain firm to the clear bad boy in the hobby and a certain sort of badge a postwar fake.

When i start collection the sentence "believing is not knowing" was a rule to have always in mind but in the meantime it has become into a "believing is enough to beaten".

Dietrich, we both know Johannes in person and know what he has told us and what he doesn't told us and now look what the hobby has made out of it .... every L15 market piece is dead - a huge mistake of collectors.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

neither you nor I are responsible for what people make out of what they read or hear. All we can do is to report as best and honestly as we can. George and myself, we had a long interview with Johannes and that is what we reported in our book.

There are hundreds of rumors in this hobby and people believe what they want to. How often do you write about the catch and pin suppliers and it is still not really acknowledged as a fact?

When I started to collect one listened only to the "people in the know" - that was a bummer!

[Leroy]

I repeat: I have no difficulty at all with the idea that S&L assembled pieces from existing leftover parts in the period May, 1945 to @ 1950.... and yes, that would include soldering, riveting, painting and, to at least some degree, "finishing". Based on "stories" we have heard, as well as the appearance of pieces from "barter boards", some of this work was most likely not done in a factory setting, but at workers' homes.

[Brian S]

And that could be the case with 'some' other manufacturers as well. But to what degree of final finish would those awards display? Poor? Awesome? And what were leftover parts in 1945? Weren't most of those ZINCK? Me thinks yes...

[Andreas Klein]

And that could be the case with 'some' other manufacturers as well. But to what degree of final finish would those awards display? Poor? Awesome? And what were leftover parts in 1945? Weren't most of those ZINCK? Me thinks yes...

Good question ... speaking for Carl Wild it looked in 2009 (!) like this. Perfect stamped, frosted finish and textbook setup allready maker marked.

If someone would solder the boxes together we would have a nice hoard find of real nice stuff.

[Andreas Klein]

or like this (in 2009 too)...

Missing needle and without black paint or simply mint with perfect golden fire gilding.

[Andreas Klein]

or 2013 ... some catches ready for beeing identified as typical XY maker setup to give a name to an unknown badge

[Andreas Klein]

still in 2013 ... some unopened packets with setups as they came from the supplier - ready to be opened and used.

[Leroy]

Thank you so much for showing us these amazing items almost 70 years after the war.

[Scott C.]

Some very 'eye-opening' pictures -- thanks for sharing. Love the smiley face made from catches... having the last laugh!

[Norm F]

Good question ... speaking for Carl Wild it looked in 2009 (!) like this. Perfect stamped, frosted finish and textbook setup allready maker marked.

If someone would solder the boxes together we would have a nice hoard find of real nice stuff.

Yikes! I was hoping this stuff was gone decades ago but I guess not. I wonder what that does to Gentry's collector confidence...

I guess we're back to the 4-category terminology:
1) wartime (with provenance)
2) wartime-compatible (without provenance)
3) possibly post-war (atypical construction - grey area)
4) fakes (obvious atrocities or post-war provenance)

...and a lot of what we used to put in category one but without provenance will have to be shifted into category two which are "classic" examples that could nevertheless have been assembled post-war.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

I wonder what that does to Gentry's collector confidence...

Nothing. I believe Andreas was 100% correct when he said this:

" To make the perfect postwar award you need much more than the worker and the die. It's my opinion that for that a maker would have needed the 100% wartime supply line consists of:

1. the die
2. the machines
3. the workers
4. the chemistry for the finish
5. the setup

If a maker was able to get all this together postwar i say that he was able to have the perfect postwar award and we would identify it as wartime because it shows everything we look for. If one of the five parts was missing we would spot differences and have a chance to identify a postwar product."


I think it's great that Andreas showed these because it demonstrates, once again, that factory stocks still exist after all these years.

[Nick Carraway]

or 2013 ... some catches ready for beeing identified as typical XY maker setup to give a name to an unknown badge

Andreas,

Any idea how many catches in the happy face? How many badges would just this little bit finish?

And thanks, amazing history there