The Floch interview regarding the Pink/Birch smocks

[kammo man]

I haven't read this entire Thread and don't want to go too far off topic here, but I wanted to add my first (and last) experience with the pink smocks.

The first time I saw these (not one, but probably four) was at Regimentals when I was stationed in England. I remember this smock episode distinctly because I had been based there for 7 years already and had recently received orders to return to the US. This would have been about Spring of '92.

My buddy and I went to both Regimentals and Military Antiques (about a block apart in Islington) at least every other month and I remember that after the break-up of the Former Soviet Union (FSU) they both had a large amount of SS camo on-hand that wasn't typically available there in the past. He had four of the pink smocks in varying conditions, and a palm tree pattern that was pretty f'd up. I remember liking the palm the most, but it was far more expensive than the others. Military Antiques had a couple of "recently liberated" pieces as they were being described and a few camo helmet covers and a f'd up face veil (that was reallllyyy expensive). I still remember how they were playing eachother regarding the pricing. We'd walk between the shops lamenting over our decisions all the time on what to buy, while they were probably on the phone to eachother discussing who would go high or low that week. It was actually a hilarious affair for my friend and I all the time and we would be almost in tears on the 2-hour ride back to RAF Lakenheath.

ALL of the pink smocks had the exact combination of stamps you see here, but in varying degrees of completeness and/or clarity. None had a mark across them though like in this pic. Both Malcolm and Bobby were pretty liberal with us on their return privileges so we figured what the hell. I bought a helmet cover and he bought a pink smock.

Because there was jack sh.. out at the time showing any of this stuff in real detail (at least over there) we agonized over both pieces. The helmet cover was easy once we really dug into it. The fabric seemed wrong and they.
rivets were more like small blackened flat nail heads vs. larger domed aluminum looking rivet heads with a peen dent on them. He just never felt comfortable with the smock and knowing that we were leaving the UK in about a month we decided to bring both pieces back. We got a full refund for both with the only hassle being them both telling us we were returning "perfectly original pieces".

When I asked Malcolm about how he got these considering the chaos at the time with the break-up of the FSU he said they came through the Czech Republic.

This pic comes from this item on The Ruptured Duck's site: https://therupturedduck.com/collecti...ree-camouflage

Thats funny.


I got my first PINK at Regimentals around 89 and My first helmet cover a year later at Military Antiques.
The Cover had silver clips made from used OAK.
Of course it was bad.
Of course the PINK was bad.

Compared to originals the FAKE stuff just tells a different story.


They were in phone contact NO doubt and both shops knew each others inventory pretty well.

[nutmeg]

So once in 10 years does something gets added to a vets grouping to enhance it.

Since WW2 this means its only happened a year handful of times.........

EVER.


UUUUUUUmmmmm.

I go on at least 1 or more estate calls a week since the 70s . Although it 's
happened it is very rare that repro are mixed in with genuine veteran estate calls. Old collections absolutely , but otherwise in my experience it's unusual. What is your experience with vet calls over the last 40 years? Ask Bruce about some of the stuff I've found.

[kammo man]

We have talked at length on then phone Don.
I don't need to ask anyone.

[kammo man]

We both now Vets can also be collectors also.

[Willi Z.]

Items have to speak for themselves. Stories don't matter, and haven't for a while.

No one, IMO, has proven these smocks are original.

I don't know, or know of, a serious advanced SS camo collector anywhere in the world who believes these smocks are original.

[kammo man]

I haven't read this entire Thread and don't want to go too far off topic here, but I wanted to add my first (and last) experience with the pink smocks.

The first time I saw these (not one, but probably four) was at Regimentals when I was stationed in England. I remember this smock episode distinctly because I had been based there for 7 years already and had recently received orders to return to the US. This would have been about Spring of '92.

My buddy and I went to both Regimentals and Military Antiques (about a block apart in Islington) at least every other month and I remember that after the break-up of the Former Soviet Union (FSU) they both had a large amount of SS camo on-hand that wasn't typically available there in the past. He had four of the pink smocks in varying conditions, and a palm tree pattern that was pretty f'd up. I remember liking the palm the most, but it was far more expensive than the others. Military Antiques had a couple of "recently liberated" pieces as they were being described and a few camo helmet covers and a f'd up face veil (that was reallllyyy expensive). I still remember how they were playing eachother regarding the pricing. We'd walk between the shops lamenting over our decisions all the time on what to buy, while they were probably on the phone to eachother discussing who would go high or low that week. It was actually a hilarious affair for my friend and I all the time and we would be almost in tears on the 2-hour ride back to RAF Lakenheath.

ALL of the pink smocks had the exact combination of stamps you see here, but in varying degrees of completeness and/or clarity. None had a mark across them though like in this pic. Both Malcolm and Bobby were pretty liberal with us on their return privileges so we figured what the hell. I bought a helmet cover and he bought a pink smock.

Because there was jack sh.. out at the time showing any of this stuff in real detail (at least over there) we agonized over both pieces. The helmet cover was easy once we really dug into it. The fabric seemed wrong and the rivets were more like small blackened flat nail heads vs. larger domed aluminum looking rivet heads with a peen dent on them. He just never felt comfortable with the smock and knowing that we were leaving the UK in about a month we decided to bring both pieces back. We got a full refund for both with the only hassle being them both telling us we were returning "perfectly original pieces".

When I asked Malcolm about how he got these considering the chaos at the time with the break-up of the FSU he said they came through the Czech Republic.

This pic comes from this item on The Ruptured Duck's site: https://therupturedduck.com/collecti...ree-camouflage

Don ,

Heres another testimonial from another member who had bad feelings about the PINK smock based on his experience before on line debates existed.

You can't ignore this.

Also please note yet another "find" story with another country brought in the mix.

The whole Pink story is a house of cards.

owen

[Waffenreich]

We both now Vets can also be collectors also.

Absolutely.

I was friends with a U.S. Army Engineer Captain that liberated Dora-Mittelbau and he went to gun shows and bought stuff for his collection.

Believe me, if he was looking on dealer A's table and saw an original EKII for $100, and went to dealer B's table and saw a repro (not listed as a repro) for $45, guess which one he's buying??

The items sit in his collection with the family having no history on many of the items and think it's part of his bring-back booty. Try telling a family who's loved one just passed away that the EK he "brought back" is a repro. That's the quickest way to kill a bigger deal.

Agree Willi - I think what complicated this for many years ago was when Borsarello (I believe) published that book on camo uniforms and it had pics of a pink smock autumn side out. The print pattern was a dead match to the one my friend had and probably all the rest of the pink panthers.

[nutmeg]

Items have to speak for themselves. Stories don't matter, and haven't for a while.

No one, IMO, has proven these smocks are original.

I don't know, or know of, a serious advanced SS camo collector anywhere in the world who believes these smocks are original.

I know one but he has no intention of getting embroiled in this. Plus a few others who have a lot of experience with it. By the same token these can only be proven to be different from the standard item. There has not been one shred of solid evidence thst they are fake.

[nutmeg]

Don ,

Heres another testimonial from another member who had bad feelings about the PINK smock based on his experience before on line debates existed.

You can't ignore this.

Also please note yet another "find" story with another country brought in the mix.

The whole Pink story is a house of cards.

owen

Every story can be interpreted to fit an agenda . I dont see anything here that proves anything other then regimentals had some for sale.

[kammo man]

Items have to speak for themselves. Stories don't matter, and haven't for a while.

No one, IMO, has proven these smocks are original.

I don't know, or know of, a serious advanced SS camo collector anywhere in the world who believes these smocks are original.

I am as serious as they come and don't believe them as real.
I also am in touch with most of the SS camouflage and world cammo collectors in the world and no one believes them as real either.

An item should stand on its own legs.
The Pink is nothing.

Its literally a few guys here who go to bat for them.
Some of them doing so or even own one which is weird.

[Edward]

[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
From Nutmegs first post on this thread Floch was asked where the smocks came from and Floch replied the Polski Film Studio. Now I read from one of RobertE's posts that Floch stated the smocks did not come from the Polski Film Studio, but from some film studio in the East. If that is the case then why did Floch not state that when asked the first time?

At any rate, thank you Vladislav for clarifying the red stamp in one of the caps as having come from the DEFA film studio. From the examples found in the caps we can see that the Polski Film and it's subsidiary studios such as W.F.F. did use a form of stamping and marking to keep prop inventory. Furthermore, as previously mentioned by an earlier poster, and shown yet again by the markings in one of the caps, the film companies in different former Warsaw Pact countries likely had an existing system of sending props from one countries studio to the other. At least that would have been the case between Poland and the former DDR.[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Bob Chatt View Post
Seriously, do you buy groupings from veterans?

I do all the time or from families of veterans. Every once in a while there is a piece that shouldn't be in the group but it doesn't do any good arguing with the vet or the family as their memories may not be as sharp as they once were.

I have bought groups where the veteran picked up a piece later in life, like maybe a reunion or someplace else but in their mind it looks like something they had during the war, so it has to be right. But we as collectors know without a doubt the pieces didn't belong there or were made way afterwards.

I remember buying a group from a 94th division guy who swore to me that all his German bring back daggers were ones he personally took of dead Germans. He and I went back and forth for an hour about this. I kept saying, " Are you sure you didn't pick these up someplace else?". All his personal items were for sure WWII vintage, but those weren't being questioned. After a while he was starting to get mad at me and I finally just had to tell him that vintage daggers were not marked WEST GERMANY and that original ones also didn't have plastic handles. He then sat back and thought about it and he finally said, " Now that I think about it I may have gotten those after the war". Was he intentionally trying to sell me fakes? I don't think so, I just think time has a way of making memories not as clear as they should be.

Same could be said about the veteran having one of these pink smocks. Maybe he remembered seeing real WWII smocks and then he saw this one and picked it up because it looked like what he remembered seeing. Or maybe it was just added by an slimy dealer / buyer who was trying to justify one of these smocks. The rest of his Airborne grouping all jived to the guy but how did the smock get there. One will never know.[/QUOTE]

All true every word of it. However, it is also the standard ploy used to try to unravel any veteran stories. I have been buying from vets since the 70s . Maybe once every 10 years i have encountered what you describe above usually with badges not uniforms.

Not sure why you quoted my last post. Not a problem, but just curious as the caps I posted were not veteran pick up's.

[Waffenreich]

There has not been one shred of solid evidence thst they are fake.

There are thousands of supremely clear pics of Waffen-SS troops and Hermann Goring Division troops wearing SS smocks. We all know that in many of the pics the specific pattern can be identified based on the leaf patterns, overprints and blob configurations. Has anybody EVER identified the very distinct signature pattern of these smocks in a period pic??? It took my buddy and I about 2 minutes to identify the specific pattern match in Borsarello's book when looking at the pic showing the back of the guy standing with a visor cap on if I remember correctly (just went to look for the book but I think I must have thrown it out when I realized these were junk).

Seriously, somebody must have tried to match this to a period pic??

Regarding vets - think about how many vets went to gun shows after seeing Private Ryan and/or Band of Brothers to get just a little piece of the war to bring them back to their youth. More than likely it was the ones that didn't do Dora or Dachau, or watch their buddies head get vaporized - you get the idea.

[Willi Z.]

There has not been one shred of solid evidence thst they are fake.

I knew that would be the response to my comment. I can't imagine why anyone would authenticate an item by proving it was not a fake, over proving it was original. Originals are a constant, fakes are ever changing and improving. One only masters an area of interest by studying known originals, rather than by trying to keep up with the moving target that is the world of fakes.

[nutmeg]

Originally Posted by Edward View Post
From Nutmegs first post on this thread Floch was asked where the smocks came from and Floch replied the Polski Film Studio. Now I read from one of RobertE's posts that Floch stated the smocks did not come from the Polski Film Studio, but from some film studio in the East. If that is the case then why did Floch not state that when asked the first time?

At any rate, thank you Vladislav for clarifying the red stamp in one of the caps as having come from the DEFA film studio. From the examples found in the caps we can see that the Polski Film and it's subsidiary studios such as W.F.F. did use a form of stamping and marking to keep prop inventory. Furthermore, as previously mentioned by an earlier poster, and shown yet again by the markings in one of the caps, the film companies in different former Warsaw Pact countries likely had an existing system of sending props from one countries studio to the other. At least that would have been the case between Poland and the former DDR.[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Bob Chatt View Post
Seriously, do you buy groupings from veterans?

I do all the time or from families of veterans. Every once in a while there is a piece that shouldn't be in the group but it doesn't do any good arguing with the vet or the family as their memories may not be as sharp as they once were.

I have bought groups where the veteran picked up a piece later in life, like maybe a reunion or someplace else but in their mind it looks like something they had during the war, so it has to be right. But we as collectors know without a doubt the pieces didn't belong there or were made way afterwards.

I remember buying a group from a 94th division guy who swore to me that all his German bring back daggers were ones he personally took of dead Germans. He and I went back and forth for an hour about this. I kept saying, " Are you sure you didn't pick these up someplace else?". All his personal items were for sure WWII vintage, but those weren't being questioned. After a while he was starting to get mad at me and I finally just had to tell him that vintage daggers were not marked WEST GERMANY and that original ones also didn't have plastic handles. He then sat back and thought about it and he finally said, " Now that I think about it I may have gotten those after the war". Was he intentionally trying to sell me fakes? I don't think so, I just think time has a way of making memories not as clear as they should be.

Same could be said about the veteran having one of these pink smocks. Maybe he remembered seeing real WWII smocks and then he saw this one and picked it up because it looked like what he remembered seeing. Or maybe it was just added by an slimy dealer / buyer who was trying to justify one of these smocks. The rest of his Airborne grouping all jived to the guy but how did the smock get there. One will never know.[/QUOTE]





Not sure why you quoted my last post. Not a problem, but just curious as the caps I posted were not veteran pick up's.[/QUOTE]

Just an error, sorry. Power is out here due to a big snowstorm and I am doing this on my cell phone.

[kammo man]

Don .

You have NEVER shown they are REAL.


NO ONE HAS.

THE only thing real with the PINK is the buttons.