Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[Robert H]

study military foreign camo, so far its a laugh study in the wrong direction.

[Erik]

However , it does have its merits , it's been a great study on SS smocks and camouflage, Russian studio markings , Soviet films , sewing details, etc. Just because it's undecided does not mean there is no value in this discussion.[/B][/I][/QUOTE]

I agree. Whatever you think about these smocks, it is always good to discuss and learn. I appreciate all who put effort in this, regardless pro or con.

Erik

[Robert H]

facts are facts without thinking,maybe's and howevers.
And the russian stamp copy float is another matter that goes already decades back to certain sources.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

I agree. Whatever you think about these smocks, it is always good to discuss and learn.

No this is not good.
This discussion and all the others are only a way to keep the fakes in the market, so people can be fooled because some trolls are trying to imply that there is 1% of possibility that the smocks are legit !

You do not discuss facts.
Facts shows that the pinkies are bogus from the start.

This is like trying to have a discussion with UFO believers or revisionnists...
You can't change their belief, but they can pollute noobs and people lacking knowledge with bogus historical claims.

What did you learn ?
That armies or archives are using stamps ?
That museums, theaters, movie studios are using reproduction or original items ?
Amazing discoveries for sure !

See You

Vince

[nutmeg]

So now discussion that some don't agree with should be banned? Anyone who disagrees is a troll? Facts haven't shown these are fake , in fact quite the opposite . If you have some facts I'd like to see them . Do you think people who know nothing now are going to run out and buy up the pinkies and the price will escalate like bitcoins? I have no reputation as an expert on SS cloth so if I'm proven wrong , I'll walk the dog and move on. However , I think some who are thought of as experts in this area could be worried they will be proven wrong so would like to see the conversation ended (not Owen) . They shouldn't , everyone is wrong about something sometimes, part of the learning process.

I just find it odd someone would want to shutdown a debate that frankly isn't hurting anything.

Hi,



No this is not good.
This discussion and all the others are only a way to keep the fakes in the market, so people can be fooled because some trolls are trying to imply that there is 1% of possibility that the smocks are legit !

You do not discuss facts.
Facts shows that the pinkies are bogus from the start.

This is like trying to have a discussion with UFO believers or revisionnists...
You can't change their belief, but they can pollute noobs and people lacking knowledge with bogus historical claims.

What did you learn ?
That armies or archives are using stamps ?
That museums, theaters, movie studios are using reproduction or original items ?
Amazing discoveries for sure !

See You

Vince

[nutmeg]

facts are facts without thinking,maybe's and howevers.
And the russian stamp copy float is another matter that goes already decades back to certain sources.

I'd love to see some of the facts and sources you are referring to. Bring them on, please!

[NZMark]

Indeed - from all the pages of this and several other threads on the subject, not one 'fact' has been put up by people who believe these to be fake (foreign) manufactured smocks - unless you count the source as the damning element. That's it.
So please, do add to the thread with facts, one way or the other - everyone will benefit from that, surely.
Mark
NZ

[Gaspare]

NUTMEG,,, please you got me wrong.. I do like the topic. Theres been a lot of dicussions on the pros and cons,,and something learned probably by everyone to a degree.

But after a while it just starts all over again / redundant. No further learning...
- those with the secrets of them being good can't provide enough for the naysayers,,,those saying they're 100% bad only elaborate to a certain degree too.

- well you can't prove they are bad. The way it works is its up to the presenter to prove they are good! Either thru comparisons, provanance, documentation.
A good topic but I don't think it changed anyones minds one way or another..

[nutmeg]

Actually it changed my mind. I followed the common thinking they were bad until reading one of the threads that showed the studio markings. I recalled my oak smock had some kind of Russian markings and when I checked they were not only the same but the first fully readable with the clear 1947 date.

In collecting should it be innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent?

NUTMEG,,, please you got me wrong.. I do like the topic. Theres been a lot of dicussions on the pros and cons,,and something learned probably by everyone to a degree.

But after a while it just starts all over again / redundant. No further learning...
- those with the secrets of them being good can't provide enough for the naysayers,,,those saying they're 100% bad only elaborate to a certain degree too.

- well you can't prove they are bad. The way it works is its up to the presenter to prove they are good! Either thru comparisons, provanance, documentation.
A good topic but I don't think it changed anyones minds one way or another..

[Tim O'Keefe]

And the russian stamp copy float is another matter that goes already decades back to certain sources.

Can you elaborate ? What certain sources ? Thanks.

[mo-do]

Re

mo-do I understand your comment. By "Jeans type" you would agree that the top photo posted in post 829 here fits that category, correct? That example was posted by Owen (I believe) earlier as an example of a wartime German made original. I stand to be corrected if I have something mixed up.

My second question is this: Is it your opinion that the capability to produce the "jeans type" lock stitch did not exist during WWII?

The 2 needle chainstitch jeans type sewing was not used for smock manufacture in ww2 period.

[Jeff V]

Indeed - from all the pages of this and several other threads on the subject, not one 'fact' has been put up by people who believe these to be fake (foreign) manufactured smocks - unless you count the source as the damning element. That's it.
So please, do add to the thread with facts, one way or the other - everyone will benefit from that, surely.
Mark
NZ

Here are some facts posted earlier that you must not remember.

Print rollers wrong size for war time resulting in a made up piece of the pattern added in to make up the difference.

Made up stamps that have not been proven to even have existed.

Interesting that of all the movie studios in the soviet union these smocks are marked with the one studio that either did not exist at all or only existed for a couple of years. Convenient!

Brought to market by one of the biggest fakers in the history of our hobby, who magically is not talking. Gee, I wonder why.

Vince is right, these endless discussions that force the community to prove an item is fake when the burden of proof should always be that the non standard item should have to be proven to be real is harmful to the hobby. I would hate to see a collection built on these standards.

[jacquesf]

.........

Vince is right, these endless discussions that force the community to prove an item is fake when the burden of proof should always be that the non standard item should have to be proven to be real is harmful to the hobby. I would hate to see a collection built on these standards.

[NickG]

Actually it changed my mind. I followed the common thinking they were bad until reading one of the threads that showed the studio markings. I recalled my oak smock had some kind of Russian markings and when I checked they were not only the same but the first fully readable with the clear 1947 date.

In collecting should it be innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent?

Well stated nutmeg! I have the exact same opinion. That 1947 stamp really opened my eyes on the possibility! (besides the rodent damage, urine etc...
as seen on bales of tropical cloth olive Kradmelder mantels which were found in various conditions in Bavaria if I'm not mistaken. I own 2 from that cache,
one mint one, the other with rodent damage just like some of these (stinky) pinks which all had to be washed after they were found... Very long term storage indicators.

[nutmeg]

Here are some facts posted earlier that you must not remember.

Print rollers wrong size for war time resulting in a made up piece of the pattern added in to make up the difference.

Made up stamps that have not been proven to even have existed.

Interesting that of all the movie studios in the soviet union these smocks are marked with the one studio that either did not exist at all or only existed for a couple of years. Convenient!

Brought to market by one of the biggest fakers in the history of our hobby, who magically is not talking. Gee, I wonder why.

Vince is right, these endless discussions that force the community to prove an item is fake when the burden of proof should always be that the non standard item should have to be proven to be real is harmful to the hobby. I would hate to see a collection built on these standards.

Minsk film did exist as an operation until sometime in 1944 when the Soviets took it over and changed the name to Belarus film sometime in 1946. That's only a few months from the date of the stamping in the smocks. Could well be they were still using the older stamper and just updated the date. It is post war Soviet Union. How did the markings get into original items not to be noticed until 37 years later, what's the point of that?

Floch has a bad reputation I'm told but I'm also told he has stumbled on huge caches of original items as well. That is a proven fact. I'm told he does not have email so there is no way to contact him other then letter writing. If I go to SOS this year, I'll run him down and grill him.

I don't see how this is harmful at all. I doubt very much collectors are rushing to buy all sorts of questionable items after reading this. There have been a great deal of benefits to this discussion whether you believe or not. Open discussion and debate are healthy for the hobby. It is more then once that conventional thought on items has been overturned by those who fought a uphill battle. Once you start shutting down opposing opinions where does it end? That's just what the fakers would want .