Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[Jeff V]

No discussion is being shut down. There are probably 200 pages of pink smock threads. I would not want to see this type of discussion applied to every oddball non standard item in the hobby. You don't see the problem with that?

What is your explanation for the non wartime sized print rollers and made up added camo pattern?

[Thorsten B.]

The Norwegian parkas do not fit any known textbook category as well.

Nonetheless they are period originals.

Being textbook in their very own unique way.

[nutmeg]

No discussion is being shut down. There are probably 200 pages of pink smock threads. I would not want to see this type of discussion applied to every oddball non standard item in the hobby. You don't see the problem with that?

What is your explanation for the non wartime sized print rollers and made up added camo pattern?

I'm not a print roller expert so I'll let those who are deal with that question. My thrust is the studio markings which led me into this in the first place.

[phild]

The 2 needle chainstitch jeans type sewing was not used for smock manufacture in ww2 period.

I assume you intended to say that the 2 needle jeans style lock stitch was not used at all for any third Reich manufacturing, correct? No one could say that this type of machine was used for some things but was verboten only for SS smocks unless every source batch of smock as been examined and they have not by a long shot.

If the jeans lock was not used at all we (Owen and others) have some explaining to do on one more examples of smocks they have posted and some helmet covers.

[Jeff V]

Nutmeg, so your belief is that belarus film made a rubber stamp saying minsk film 1947 when there was no such company in existence?

[phild]

[QUOTE=Jeff V;80374.

What is your explanation for the non wartime sized print rollers and made up added camo pattern?[/QUOTE]

Strange question in view of the fact that we spent maybe 15 pages of discussions and side by side comparisons showing clearly that the pattern was adapted for a larger roller size. That fact (and it is a fact) does not in itself mean they are WW2 but it shows the material was printed somewhere other than the plants that printed it in Germany.

[Stive]

Please specialists in the German camouflage waffe-ss clothes prompt, it is an original jacket or not?

[Jeff V]

Strange question in view of the fact that we spent maybe 15 pages of discussions and side by side comparisons showing clearly that the pattern was adapted for a larger roller size. That fact (and it is a fact) does not in itself mean they are WW2 but it shows the material was printed somewhere other than the plants that printed it in Germany.

My point exactly. Since you are so knowledgable, any other accepted originals that share this trait. Don't bother mentioning the norwegian as it does not have a made up section of camo in the pattern.

[nutmeg]

Nutmeg, so your belief is that belarus film made a rubber stamp saying minsk film 1947 when there was no such company in existence?

I didn't say that at all, not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

It may be that they continued to use the old Minsk film stamps into the Belarus period. This is post war Soviet Union , still in somewhat of a turmoil. It probably wasn't the most important item on the agenda to change the rubber stamps on costume inventory as soon as the film company name changed. Why bother? It's still a the film company operating in Minsk, the only one . Or there are any number of other reasons that we are not aware of today and those involved at the time are long dead. Again like the Eastern Turkish SS cufftitle, no record of them authorized or issued , or in photos, but yet there they are, found at Dachau.

If Floch created these stamps as you imply how would he have penetrated the Soviet Film studios at the time to see how they marked them? Why bother marking them at all? Why not then stamp them in all the smocks.

Most importantly why stamp them in original items? The canard some use to discredit that is he did it to help authenticate the pinks. If that was the case how would that be done? There was no internet to trumpet the fact in 1980. How would you get the word out? It was only because of these threads it was noticed 35 years later that some standard smocks and a pair of trousers also had the same stamps. In addition until my Oak all of these marks were pretty much unreadable. My smock came from the Tony Gordon stash and had been out of circulation for decades until I bought it (one of 4 from his collection, with loads of the tropical caps and some uniforms from Eastern Europe) about 10-12 years ago.

[Jeff V]

The stamp says minsk film with a date of 1947. How could they continue to use an old stamp when it is dated 1947 for company which no longer existed?

[Jeff V]

Surely you don't think that no one in eastern europe had never seen a costume studio stamp before. It is the little things that always mess up the fraudsters.
Documents signed by the wrong commanding officer. Badges with the wrong hardware. Peaked caps with the wrong shape for the maker. The list goes on and on.

[90th Light]

The stamp says minsk film with a date of 1947. How could they continue to use an old stamp when it is dated 1947 for company which no longer existed?

Soviet forces liberated Minsk in the Summer of 1944 and basically by July 3, 1944 the German forces in the city were defeated.

As I understand it, Alexander Medvedkin was head of a team of film makers on the Belorussian front near Minsk from late 1943. By September 1944, he was requesting desperately needed man-power and other resources.

And again as I understand it, the film studio in Minsk was pressed back into service in the second half of 1944 after liberation by the Soviets

So what is this film studio called in the period 1944 to early 1947 ?

And would those in the USSR throw all the old rubber stamps away and make sure everyone had a brand new rubber stamp during that period of time ?

or would they just keep using the old stamps with a current date added until new stamps were made ? Were they were even in a position to make rubber stamps again in Minsk 1944 to 1947 ?

It is my experience that the USSR simply kept using the old models of something right along side the new models. The former USSR was notorious for all sorts of shortages of most things. Thus, the older models and obsolete versions had value/ use long past the phase out date.

Even today, I was surprised to read how many older models of Russian tanks could be pressed back into service if needed, to seriously outnumber NATO forces should direct military action be taken in the Ukraine. It seems some things in some parts of the world do not change,

Chris

[Jeff V]

Chris, I don't know what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that they somehow used an old stamp from 1944 that had the date 1947 in the rubber. When you view this stamp does that 1947 date look like it was added separately?

[nutmeg]

Surely you don't think that no one in eastern europe had never seen a costume studio stamp before. It is the little things that always mess up the fraudsters.
Documents signed by the wrong commanding officer. Badges with the wrong hardware. Peaked caps with the wrong shape for the maker. The list goes on and on.

So far I haven't seen this particular type of box stamp with a 1940s date other then the pink smocks and the examples we found in the Mosfilm and Belarus vaults. Other later studio stamps are around but this 1940s type not so( I've looked pretty hard too). Could there be some around now? sure , but before 1980? Pretty darn unlikely, unless you felt penetrating the USSR film vaults then was worth the risk just to see what some looked like. Frankly, why even bother with that kind of detail which not only was unnecessary and hardly a selling point at the time.

Heck, it took a professional Russian film archivist I hired nearly a year to get permission just to take a look recently.

[nutmeg]

Chris, I don't know what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that they somehow used an old stamp from 1944 that had the date 1947 in the rubber. When you view this stamp does that 1947 date look like it was added separately?

Here is a Mosfilm example (in their vault ). All you have to do is change the last number.