Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[nutmeg]

I would imagine among KZ prisoners that there would be quite a few skilled tailors and seamstresses who could already use the more sophisticated machines . Common sense would say you would select these people to do the more complicated work?

There are a couple of conversations going on here in this last page of posts, but all related. I will try to respond. I found a reference to the upgrading of Ravensbruck in 1942 and in that reference it did not specify double stitch machines. It did state modern machines and that some had a capability to sew button holes (implied that their earlier set up did not) and this reference was basically a continuation of the reference cited by ThorstenB in this thread.

To mo-do, Thanks for your photo of the front and back. I am not sure if the chain stitch you show is the same as found on the so-called pinks or the "German" made standard in black thread posted by Owen (both of of which seem to be same to each other in terms of the chain stitch.

You seem to know your subject and I can respect that. I can agree that the double needle machines were expensive and required higher skills. I do not know for a fact one way or the other if they were used in any KZ shops, but that question, or rather its answer, is not that important to the subject at hand IMO.

We seem to know now that a large amount of SS uniform production was not executed within the KZ system, but with other private companies as well. We also now know that the wartime smocks and other SS camo items came from a number of manufacturers as born out by the production details and some of the code markings found on dot 44 pattern items for instance.

As for the pink smock the question still stands that if it was made post war (or wartime) it was made in a well equipped factory. While this would have been possible in pre-1980 Eastern Europe or the USSR, I find it unlikely. No doubt others will chime in say how easy it would have been and then explain why it took the "expert" fakers in the West another 25 years to figure out the double needle arm and side seams.

[nutmeg]

Floch has pumped more fakes of all types in this hobby for years than almost anyone. His name is synonymous with fake. This is the man that the believer puts his faith in.

I don't know him, never met him. But he has sold a lot of original material as well. There probably isn't a dealer who hasn't sold some fakes over the last few years. Charlie Snyder may have even sold some perfectly original items on occasion (maybe not that often.

[Jeff V]

I don't know him, never met him. But he has sold a lot of original material as well. There probably isn't a dealer who hasn't sold some fakes over the last few years. Charlie Snyder may have even sold some perfectly original items on occasion (maybe not that often.

This is not a good dealer who happened to sell a couple of fakes.

[Jeff V]

Bob Hritz has spoken to Floch about these and if I understood what Bob stated several threads ago, also any paper work in connection with them. Again as I understood what Bob said, Floch was still dealing with some of those connected with this find but when he was ready, would let us know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hritz on earlier thread
"I bought mine from Johannes Floch. Johannes found these in Czechoslovakia in bales. This was from such a bale. There were somcks that were greatly damaged from rodent chewing and I recall one missing one sleeve and shoulder to such damage. All had been washed to obtain export papers to get them to Austria.

Whatever anyone wants to comment about my friend, Johannes Floch, I will state that I have never seen him sell anything described as anything but what it is. I asked Johannes about the smocks and he told me they were found in Czechoslovakia and I believe him. He has never lied to me since we met in 1971.

If you have a mint tropical overseas cap, a mint boxed bronze or silver Herman Aurich tank badge, a mint packeted JFS Infantry assault badge. one of the hundreds of mint Allgemeine-SS numbered cuff titles (to include all the Sanitats-Abteilung XXXIII titles), mint Theodor Eicke white bevo cuff titles, and thousands of other original pieces of insignia, they may well have come from Johannes Floch. Johannes was the most successful Third Reich relic hunter and spent decades searching for material from original sources. At any MAX Show or Show of Shows, introduce yourself to Johannes and ask him."

Bob Hritz



Sums it up nicely,

Chris

Chris this post is offensive. Why don't you ask all the people who have lost money over the years to the Floch fakes what a great guy he is.

[NZMark]

I think you mean 'in your opinion' Bob's initial post was offensive? I would also believe in Bob's experience what he wrote is a fact?
No dealer in history is faultless of selling reproductions.
Mark NZ

[Marc verstraete]

A similar situation is for example with 100% true belt buckles (also SS) marked GZM instead of RZM etc etc...
GZM = ?? - and there is still no evidence of who is the manufacturer..

GZM SS buckles !!!! Real ? Picture please ....
M.

[mo-do]

Re

There are a couple of conversations going on here in this last page of posts, but all related. I will try to respond. I found a reference to the upgrading of Ravensbruck in 1942 and in that reference it did not specify double stitch machines. It did state modern machines and that some had a capability to sew button holes (implied that their earlier set up did not) and this reference was basically a continuation of the reference cited by ThorstenB in this thread.

To mo-do, Thanks for your photo of the front and back. I am not sure if the chain stitch you show is the same as found on the so-called pinks or the "German" made standard in black thread posted by Owen (both of of which seem to be same to each other in terms of the chain stitch.

You seem to know your subject and I can respect that. I can agree that the double needle machines were expensive and required higher skills. I do not know for a fact one way or the other if they were used in any KZ shops, but that question, or rather its answer, is not that important to the subject at hand IMO.

We seem to know now that a large amount of SS uniform production was not executed within the KZ system, but with other private companies as well. We also now know that the wartime smocks and other SS camo items came from a number of manufacturers as born out by the production details and some of the code markings found on dot 44 pattern items for instance.

As for the pink smock the question still stands that if it was made post war (or wartime) it was made in a well equipped factory. While this would have been possible in pre-1980 Eastern Europe or the USSR, I find it unlikely. No doubt others will chime in say how easy it would have been and then explain why it took the "expert" fakers in the West another 25 years to figure out the double needle arm and side seams.

There is no chainstitch in the photo I attached only lockstitch showing the work HBT. The ss camo smocks were made with single needle household machines (which were lockstitch) . Hbt and work uniforms were made with 1 and 2 needle machines if needed more strength but also only in lockstitching, perhaps certain manufacturers could use 2 needle machines to make the smocks but not of the jeans type and not in chainstich which differs
by being a 12 step type as opposed to the 6 step of the lockstitch.

[phild]

There is no chainstitch in the photo I attached only lockstitch showing the work HBT. The ss camo smocks were made with single needle household machines (which were lockstitch) . Hbt and work uniforms were made with 1 and 2 needle machines if needed more strength but also only in lockstitching, perhaps certain manufacturers could use 2 needle machines to make the smocks but not of the jeans type and not in chainstich which differs
by being a 12 step type as opposed to the 6 step of the lockstitch.

mo-do I understand your comment. By "Jeans type" you would agree that the top photo posted in post 829 here fits that category, correct? That example was posted by Owen (I believe) earlier as an example of a wartime German made original. I stand to be corrected if I have something mixed up.

My second question is this: Is it your opinion that the capability to produce the "jeans type" lock stitch did not exist during WWII?

[ACD]

GZM SS buckles !!!! Real ? Picture please ....
M.

And you think they're fake?
There were some of these SS GZM buckles found many years ago in Poland in the clay .. and they really looked like time pieces.

[ACD]

Only the stamps on these blouses do not support my theory.

Yes, the Barrandov Czechoslovak film studio has been working closely with Mosfil since 1949/50 and many films have been co-produced with Soviet film studies.,

If someone says it was difficult to export these ¨SS bluzes legally from 60-80's from Czechoslovakia, so he lies. Many thousands of private traders from Germany, Austria, Italy,.. have traveled to Czechoslovakia for several years after the war, and if they had Western money = DM, shillings, dollars or pounds, they were in CS welcomed:-)

[nutmeg]

Ray Zyla of Mohawk Arms told me few years ago he that in the 1960s he was in Czechoslovakia trying to buy a warehouse full of German uniforms and other stuff. He said they were walking across bales of German uniforms of all kinds. Before they could make the deal the revolution broke out and they had to leave. So for some reason after things calmed down everything was gone or they couldn't get the contact going again. Being nearly 50 years ago he didn't recall any details of what types of uniforms etc.

Not claiming there were pinks there, just German uniforms of different kinds. I am willing to ask him for more detail if anyone is interested.

BTW , I am happy to see our Czech friends contributing to this thread. Maybe they can help throw further light on this controversy.

[Robert H]

I have to say sorry, but this thread is quite worthless. Even to start with it. The pink camo is known post war. But of course some people just love conspiracy and needle storys too much.

[nutmeg]

I have to say sorry, but this thread is quite worthless. Even to start with it. The pink camo is known post war. But of course some people just love conspiracy and needle storys too much.

Just saying it's post war doesn't make it so. If you have proof to back up your statements , please don't hold back, let's have it.

[Gaspare]

As far as the belt buckles I'd go with Marc V.. before anyone even if they had film of them being dug.. Ground dug is not a provenance..

These 'pinks' I don't care about,,if you like them and they make you happy then enjoy..

But to use 'Mr Floch' as proof!?
*PLEASE re read this post:
Floch has pumped more fakes of all types in this hobby for years than almost anyone. His name is synonymous with fake. This is the man that the believer puts his faith in.

Many $1000s of dollars, many many collectors, IF you been in the hobby more than a few years know and have heard of the dreaded 'You've been Floched'!.
IAB, PAB, SWB, EK1s and God know what else this man directly is responsible for ripping off the hard working collecter with his wares and BS stories etc. He certainly isn't a provanance for anything except BS.....

Yeah, just end this thing. those that have them no ones going to change their mind. To each his own is fine,,let it go..

[nutmeg]

Yeah, just end this thing. those that have them no ones going to change their mind. To each his own is fine,,let it go..[/QUOTE]

If you don't like the thread you don't have to read it .

However , it does have its merits , it's been a great study on SS smocks and camouflage, Russian studio markings , Soviet films , sewing details, etc. Just because it's undecided does not mean there is no value in this discussion.