Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[jacquesf]

My only comment on these is that are are no proof, not a single one that the pink smocks were made or worn during ww2.

When, where and why they were made is a total mystery and not a single fact (Photograchic documented etc.) to address that has been raised.

The only fact here in this debate is that they exist and are different to all known originals.

It becomes something like religion, either you believe or you don't.J

[Glenn McInnes]

Maybe a stupid question but has anyone considered a possible Korean army connection to these pink smocks? Maybe they liked the German camo and tried to copy it.

I have seen photos of Korean soldiers wearing SS camo and Koreans are generally small in stature which could explain the small sizes.

Maybe something to look into.







Glenn

[jacquesf]

Maybe a stupid question but has anyone considered a possible Korean army connection to these pink smocks? Maybe they liked the German camo and tried to copy it.

I have seen photos of Korean soldiers wearing SS camo and Koreans are generally small in stature which could explain the small sizes.

Maybe something to look into.







Glenn

Glenn that, the Korean angle, has been raised earlier in this thread. J

[jotuntroll]

Thanks Owen for proving what many of us have thought for some time

[NCO]

Thank you nutmeg for your extraordinary investigation, outstanding.

Because of the differences Owen has clearly outlined, which I must say is some impressive work too and we all thank you for your time to put together and show.

Was there no inspection of smocks, Camp made or Ghetto, was near enough good enough for camo. Could these have failed a QC report which may have include, colour and dyes not right,,, HBT colour pockets not right ,,, thread colour not right,,, size not right,,, and resulted in never to be used but stashed away because someone clearly / obviously didn't know what they were doing, had no skill , no knowledge or direction as to exactly how they should be to the millimetre and colours and weren't supervised thus far, every step in its production. Why did they get that far to completion?
What penalty would have been implemented to such leader over looking its production in a time of need?

Could the fakers seriously get this so wrong by not following a text book example and continued just to see what would happen and hope nobody can notice a difference when entering the market post war?

PS: Owen, you have show a much more positive constructive approach than the previous thread and hope it continues this way, its keeping me interested and encouraging others to listen to what you are saying in detail, thank you.

cheers
NCO

[90th Light]

One point I want to clarify, Owen is implying that all the SS smocks he is comparing with, are one size fits all and that size is "XL" where as he feels that the Pink-Brick-Birch smock is size "S". Thus smaller.

Have I understood him correctly on this point ?

If so, I find this a bit strange, based on the actual combat items that I have picked up. Take tropical M40 caps for example, I fit a size 61 or 62 German tropical M40 cap. Yet the range of actual caps I have picked up myself or seen obtained directly from veterans is always around size 54 to 58. Sometimes 53 and 59 but not often. Same with German tropical tunics, I would be hard pressed to find an original example that could fit me. My conclusion is that a lot of Germans fighting WW2 were not big guys and several of slender build.

So were all original pre-May SS smocks made in one "XL" size only to go over the uniform and equipment or was there more than one size like M, L & XL ?

Or does cotton duck material shrink with washing once the water repellant loses its resistance. Especially when washed in a heavy industrial washing machine with industrial detergents like the Pink-Brick-Birch smocks have been ? Shrinkage from washing in boiling hot water could explain the size differences being observed in Owen's photos. Anyone remember Levi jeans in the 1960's and 1970's, you always had to allow for how much they would shrink and fade with washing when you bought them,

Chris

[90th Light]

This comparison is particularly useful and a great photo.

Owen, is it possible to get close-ups of the "Selvage" i.e. self-finished edge of the Duck fabrics at the cuff which stops the fabric from unraveling or fraying to compare with the Selvage on the Pink ?

Chris

A selection of original war time cuffs and lower selves


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DaveG]

Nothing to add of substance, just a comment. A collector friend of mine, now deceased, was in the first wave of U.S. collector/dealers who scoured Europe, primarily Germany for militaria in the 1970s and later. I remember him telling me a story in the very early '80s, perhaps 1981-1982 about baled camouflage SS uniforms found in Poland. He was not the finder, he just related the story to me. No other details come to my aged mind. Great thread and so far without the usual sniping and one ups manship, which gets very tiresome. The two principles are to be congratulated for their cogent responses and restraint.

Dave

[Robert H]

Glenn made a comment, that is more important

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Maybe a stupid question but has anyone considered a possible Korean army connection to these pink smocks? Maybe they liked the German camo and tried to copy it.
I have seen photos of Korean soldiers wearing SS camo and Koreans are generally small in stature which could explain the small sizes.

1) the use of SS German camo is already discussed here :

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...orms-in-korea/

http://vmpa.ordnancereproductions.com/koreanwar.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1641810/posts

No proof that Tarnjacken were ever used. Only 44 dot tunic from mint US/NATO stock.

2) so are we now trying to find any way to legitimate the fake Pink smocks, with totally improbable and crazy stories that they were made on Sirius, Korea, the Moon ???

South Korea ("Free World") > non-existent Belarus movie studio (CCCP !) > Czechoslovakia (Warsaw Pact) > Johannes Floch (famous fakers amongst the fakers, Austria, "Free World") > US...
All that in the 80's, on both sides of the Iron Curtain...

So all the camo specialists in the world would have missed the fabrication and existence of the Pinky, produced in South Korea, then send behind the Iron Curtain, then send again to the US ?

See You

Vince

[kammo man]

Owen , thank you for taking the time posting all those photos of your smock collection . It was very informative for me only owning one original plain tree .

Without entering in the pink smock debate . Have you ever handled any of the ss pattern smocks made of Italian camo both the one used or manufactured for the Luftwaffe and the others worn by the italian SS and SD troops ? My question is ....do the differ from
Or follow the benchmarks of all the other original SS smocks ? Where they Italian made or German?

Denis
I will post a limited response to that today.

[kammo man]

Thanks Owen for proving what many of us have thought for some time

My pleasure.

[phild]

NS160 reported that he measured well over 50 accepted verified original SS smocks in some span of about 30 years. This is his report:

Chest size-56-58 inches
Cuff to Cuff length- 72-74 inches
Sleeve circumference -20 inches


Has anyone here actually and correctly measured a "pink" smock (other than I)??

I have measured 3 "pink' smocks, my findings are as follows:

Chest size- 56 inches (give or take 1/2 inch)
Cuff to Cuff- 71-72 inches
Sleeve circumference - 19 -20 inches


It's difficult to understand how (not why) many refer to these as small size when all of the key size measurements are in fact within the range of the sizes documented in the largest study of originals in this aspect that has been published.



As far as I am concerned there has not been one point of evidence brought up that these have any connection to Korea. To make it clear I do not consider the claim made by Owen 7 years ago that he found two quarter size swatches of South Korean duck hunting camo material used as button reinforcement in ONE smock that he bought, as evidence of this connection!

The comparison side by side that has spanned four pages here may serve as some kind of proof or confirmation to some or civil discourse to others, but I see this very differently.
We have had similar side by side comparisons in past threads where it was very difficult to pick out the "pink" from the accepted SS camo. The example used by Owen is not close in color sharpness to my example or many others that I know of.

A couple of facts regarding the thread used and the pocket material:

No white thread............

Most of these that I have examined use a medium shade gray thread for the construction. There is often a medium heavy green thread used in the pocket flap/button hole construction (different work station) and sometimes I have seen one or two of these entire smocks sewn primarily with the green thread. I have also seen on some few examples a medium brown thread used for some construction. All thread tested to be natural fibers with the green thread testing as rayon or at least consisting of some rayon.

HBT pocket bags on non-washed or bleached examples are medium gray....some examples ranging dark gray.


One can cherry pick examples in a comparison if they are trying to prove an agenda, but here or some facts not expressed thus far:

Thread color varied in accepted SS camo....actually a good deal. Black to gray to tan is all often found.

Camo loops also varied in accepted SS smocks.....they are also two styles of Sewing loops in these Pink Smocks so when making a comparison the two styles should be compared to their counterparts.

The exact placement of the lower sleeve varied a fair amount in accepted SS smocks. The comparison shows this detail as being "off" on the pink. I have lined several up perfectly with accepted smocks.


So we have all concluded that these were not made along with the accepted smocks. Most of us came to this conclusion 10 to 15 years ago.

I'm with jacquesf in that everyone can either believe or not. I don't care to convince anyone, but I make the above post to correct some of the bad information that has been presented here in this thread alone.


There has also be comments alluding to cut differences or mistakes in details of cut or fabrication. I disagree. These are stitch by stitch and seam by seam the same as CAN be found with accepted SS smocks. This is important because it is well known that these details varied much more within the family of accepted original SS smocks than they do between these "pink" smocks and some variations of accepted SS smocks.

If anyone has an issue or problem with anything that I have said here on a factual basis I would like to hear it.

[kammo man]

Korean


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phild]

Please lay a US Quarter on that sample to show the viewer the scale.

You would agree that the smock button swatch that you cited years ago is optimistically no larger than a US Quarter?

Maybe you could positively ID such a small swatch as Korean in origin (for discussion sake) but I have never seen this on any of several dozen Pink smocks that I have examined and one much reserve the possibility that the one claimed instance of this was the result of a previous owner using the swatches for repair or analysis and replacing them with something handy.