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**Wijtman01** · 02-16-2010, 05:49 AM

please show us the cusion

**jacquesf** · 02-16-2010, 02:47 PM

I just had the opportunity to study the group in hand and all that I can say is that it is 100% better than on the pictures. If ever their was a chance to study textbook wear on a combat worn tunic, this represents that. It is quite remarkable, especially with the various bits and how it corresponds with his service records and awards tie up with his war service. Jacques

**Jeff V** · 02-16-2010, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

I just had the opportunity to study the group in hand and all that I can say is that it is 100% better than on the pictures. If ever their was a chance to study textbook wear on a combat worn tunic, this represents that. It is quite remarkable, especially with the various bits and how it corresponds with his service records and awards tie up with his war service. Jacques

Hi Jacques, Since you have seen this piece in hand, can you please explain why there is no bullet hole in the tunic? I see a wound badge with a bullet hole in it, which would sit right below the upper pocket. However, on the reverse of the tunic the blood stain is in the lower pocket region. How can this be? Nowhere on the tunic do I see any evidence of bullet holes or shapnel or a repair. Another poster asked a good question which was unanswered. Is it normal to send blood stained clothing of people killed in action to the families? Did specialists go around the aid stations and hospitals to gather up the tunics that were taken off wounded soldiers, sort them to the wounded and killed, and then mail them covered in blood to the families? I think not. At any rate this is NOT a one looker.
best wishes,
jeff

**John Pic** · 02-16-2010, 06:32 PM

Jeff...you bring up some interesting points looking at that particular tunic and then the badge but.... Why is the tunic stained in blood...its the tunic he wore during the first time he was wounded then awarded the black wound badge and then left it at home when he returned for recovery... before going out and being killed in another uniform explains it.I think this story fits what was given as a history....looks like a one looker.
A stunning group which Andre deserves to be the keeper of such a group.

**Jeff V** · 02-16-2010, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by lassefinn View Post

Lotze was after heavy wounds in 1943 Instructor in Bad Tölz,in his Holiday he want to visit his comrades at the Front.Here the russians attack the WESTLAND positions and Lotze overtook command over his old company and led them in a counter attack.He was hit by shrapnells in his stomach and died later.
For this bravery he won the Knight Cross posthum.
His hole Group,inkl KC,Tunic,2 Caps,Documents and so on is still alive and in a German collection.

Best regards

An interesting theory John. I don't see where the heavy wounds were located in the above post, perhaps another member can help. It does seem that the blood staining in the tunic is in the stomach region, which would be the death wound. I still cannot find any holes piercing the tunic to cause such a wound. The wound badge is a complete mystery. There is no way that badge was pinned on this tunic and shot through, which eliminates this tunic as the one worn when he was previously wounded. I would suspect that a bullet in that part of the torso on the eastern front would be very grievous. Also, I agree there is no blood in that area. Perhaps some others can help answer these questions.
best wishes,
jeff

**John Pic** · 02-16-2010, 08:48 PM

I agree with your statement that it definately not is the tunic he was shot in while wearing that wound badge.

**jacquesf** · 02-17-2010, 12:44 AM

Jeff, there are small puncture holes in the tunic in the stomach ares itself. However the majority of the bleeding and blood was on the pants, to such an extent that the pants rotted and was thrown away. If he bled from a groin/leg wound, an arterial wound have been enough to cause his death and cause this amount of blood on the tunic. Remember if you are wounded severely you normally fall down and blood tend to pool under and around you. There does not have to be a bullet wound that directly correlates with blood stain. If you think this is not a one looker tunic, I doubt whether you have ever seen a one looker tunic.

Regarding the wound badge, obviously this badge was not on this tunic and was not involved in the wound that caused his death. Then no one claimed that. It could have been a badge involved in a previous wound, it could have belonged to a close friend, it could even have been an alien's, we dont know. The arm chair detectective work and conjecture is really tiring sometimes as some of the assumptions are just ridicilous. It is like eyewitness accounts of events that happend 70 years earlier in the chaos of war, when you were not even there and then make logical deductions on 5% of the evidence. Jacques

**billbert** · 02-17-2010, 03:10 AM

Again thanks for showing this great grouping !!!! Billbert

**jacquesf** · 02-17-2010, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

Jeff...you bring up some interesting points looking at that particular tunic and then the badge but.... Why is the tunic stained in blood...its the tunic he wore during the first time he was wounded then awarded the black wound badge and then left it at home when he returned for recovery... before going out and being killed in another uniform explains it.I think this story fits what was given as a history....looks like a one looker.
A stunning group which Andre deserves to be the keeper of such a group.

This is another option that I have not considered, which are is very plausible. That it is an earlier tunic, being involved in his first wounding and not the one involved in his death. Jacques

**jacquesf** · 02-17-2010, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Wijtman01 View Post

please show us the cusion

Posted for Andre.

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**Jeff V** · 02-17-2010, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

Jeff, there are small puncture holes in the tunic in the stomach ares itself. However the majority of the bleeding and blood was on the pants, to such an extent that the pants rotted and was thrown away. If he bled from a groin/leg wound, an arterial wound have been enough to cause his death and cause this amount of blood on the tunic. Remember if you are wounded severely you normally fall down and blood tend to pool under and around you. There does not have to be a bullet wound that directly correlates with blood stain. If you think this is not a one looker tunic, I doubt whether you have ever seen a one looker tunic.

Regarding the wound badge, obviously this badge was not on this tunic and was not involved in the wound that caused his death. Then no one claimed that. It could have been a badge involved in a previous wound, it could have belonged to a close friend, it could even have been an alien's, we dont know. The arm chair detectective work and conjecture is really tiring sometimes as some of the assumptions are just ridicilous. It is like eyewitness accounts of events that happend 70 years earlier in the chaos of war, when you were not even there and then make logical deductions on 5% of the evidence. Jacques

Hi Jacques, if you think this conjecture is tiring please reread your above post "blood pooling from a groin wound"

.
This hobby requires a lot more than "I got it from the family, so it is a 100% one looker". All we were shown in this thread was a couple of pictures of a tunic from 2 meters distance. Now maybe your guys eyes are like an hawk and can actually determine real from fake on a tunic from 2 meters, however I cannot.
With the large sum of money involved in these things I prefer to ask pertinent questions, I'm sorry that you don't want any such "armchair detective work".
best wishes,
jeff

**AndreM** · 02-17-2010, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Jeff V View Post

Hi Jacques, if you think this conjecture is tiring please reread your above post "blood pooling from a groin wound"

.
This hobby requires a lot more than "I got it from the family, so it is a 100% one looker". All we were shown in this thread was a couple of pictures of a tunic from 2 meters distance. Now maybe your guys eyes are like an hawk and can actually determine real from fake on a tunic from 2 meters, however I cannot.
With the large sum of money involved in these things I prefer to ask pertinent questions, I'm sorry that you don't want any such "armchair detective work".
best wishes,
jeff

I can see from your comments that you must have held the tunic in your hands eh Jeff?

**Jeff V** · 02-17-2010, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by AndreM View Post

I can see from your comments that you must have held the tunic in your hands eh Jeff?

I am not sure what you mean Andre? To clarify my post since you seem to be having trouble reading it. No I have not handled the tunic, in fact, I have not even seen the tunic, unless you guys count seeing something as looking at it from a distance of two meters. Enjoy your grouping.
best wishes,
jeff

**Ohlau** · 02-17-2010, 01:29 PM

...ehm

I hope that the topic won't turn into b......it like others....

What next ? physical examinations of tracks of blood and DNA examinations ?

**seebee1** · 02-17-2010, 02:02 PM

Andre, thank you for sharing such a truly historic and exceptional grouping. Awesome does not come close

Regards, Clive.

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SS-Ostuf. Gerhard Lotze Komp Chef 11./SS-Pz Gren. Rgt 10 "Westland"

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