SS Officers eagle

[Felix]

The minister of propaganda has spoken!

Thats a comment from an imbecill without knowledge.
If you have nothing of relevance to post, please dont.

I am sure moderators will agree.

//Felix

[dhunter93]

Thats a comment from an imbecill without knowledge.
If you have nothing of relevance to post, please dont.

I am sure moderators will agree.

//Felix

Quick run and tell...

[John Pic]

bnz . I did because when I was looking at all the Sieder eagles and if you look and compair them Sieder eagles use a similar pattern on the wings highlights..so I at first thought I was seeing an improved Sieder type....but then I remembered the ones that I mentioned before which were once posted on GDC....nobodys perfect....even though people think I should be for thier entertainment.

Felix you say "These eagles are old and well known copies " regarding those I posted, BULL CRAP those particular eagles were one of a kind made especially for me, not mass produced and certainly not mass marketed. That statement alone tells me you are misinformed.

Felix now I can say that I too think its your ego getting in the way....but we can respectfully agree to disagree.

[Felix]

bnz . I did because when I was looking at all the Sieder eagles and if you look and compair them Sieder eagles use a similar pattern on the wings highlights..so I at first thought I was seeing an improved Sieder type....but then I remembered the ones that I mentioned before which were once posted on GDC....nobodys perfect....even though people think I should be for thier entertainment.

Felix you say "These eagles are old and well known copies " regarding those I posted, BULL CRAP those particular eagles were one of a kind made especially for me, not mass produced and certainly not mass marketed. That statement alone tells me you are misinformed.

Felix now I can say that I too think its your ego getting in the way....but we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Without finding any of substance or relevenace regarding what I have brought forward this is what you come with!? Surely I would have expected more.
In short, you have no real arguments for your case, and can not meet the information I have presented.

These copies are + 5 years old and have been discussed many times. Hence my writing. Your version changes every time you write about them.

I disagree with you, I question your knowledge, and your insults you can keep to yourself.

//Felix

P.s. If there is any one with an Ego problem it is you. How many times you have been expelled from different forums? Take a look in the mirror before you throw words around.

[Felix]

For the rest of the viewers in this thread I hope you can assemble and value the information given, dispite a few posts that has been not so productive. Perhaps I could have been a bit milder myself.
However when going against the current and trying to proove a case it is sometimes very important to hold the line. If I would have started to wobble because some names flinged in their comments, we would not have gotten this far. After having spend several thousands of hourse studying SS insignias, it is hard to give up a case when I know I have good suportive evidence.

Please look at the photos posted and also the good comparison animations Bnz provided and then read below.

1. I have found that backing support material vary a lot on original bullion insignias. Black, or darker cloth is most frequent. However there are rather many examples of original bullion work that has light or white backing. Of course the cut of this backing support material varied as well. The eagle in question has a very white material which I have found to be ok. And when looking at other examples of this style of eagle, they also have white backing. See example from Bob Hritz. So called experts on sleeve eagles denied that white colored backing support material exists, and afterwards have found themselves to be in error.

2. The style of eagle with the twisted bullion on the top line of the eagles wing is an original war time version of the SS bullion sleeve eagle. Judas eagle is an example of that. All 3 eagles I posted have the same basic features. Twisted bullion upper wing line. This is in itself the most distinguishing feature of this style of eagle. When evaluating this style of eagle one must compare with other verified examples of the same kind. We have here Judas eagle and Bob Hritz eagle. I have 3 more eagles of the same syle on file.

3. Unterlagen. On the eagle in question one can not see an unterlagen. You can very clearly see it on Judas eagle because it has had a lot of wear and been exposed to moisture etc. We know what happens to paper when wet and getting dry after. There are many SS rune bullion tabs with rather twisted or deformed runes, because of wear and water and also because they might have been misplaced during the embroidery in the factory. I would be very surprised if this eagle lacks an unterlagen. Also thickness of unterlagen varied and can also be hard to see from photos. It is also a bit dangerous to make hasty comments if there is an unterlagen or not from poor photos.

4. Variations of the same style of eagle over the same template "unterlagen" As Bnz points out there are variances of the 3 eagles. The main features are the same though and that is what is most important. Compare again with bullion runes or bullion eagles. There are no two ones that are exaclty the same. Even the 122 stamped eagles vary a lot, but has the same main features. That is because the human hand makes the embroidery and it aint no machine that make perfect repetitions. Compare also with bullion heer eagles and LW or kriegsmarine eagles in bullion.
Especially Judas eagle and the eagle in question are IMO without a doubt of the same style. All vital points are the same, again consideration must be taken to heavy wear, water damage versus a minty one that has been on a shelf. Bob's example also has wear and has slightly different variation of the style of eagle in question. The vital details are there, and are the same on the 3 eagles.
I have studied a number of SS bullion eagles and own a few myself. Thats not so important here. What is important is the information given. Insignias has to stand on their own merits and it is vital to compare the correct details.
Lighting can be very decieving for different insignias. It fools many people. I have seen that on many occasions and I am sure most of us have. The eagle in question has been exposed to a front light leaving no shadows and is also overexposed making the contrast, and hence the feeling of depth very shallow. One can also compare with a small detail that all eagles have, a bit of fatness of he left upper line of twisted bullion on the left side. Compare the quality and tighness of the embroidery in Bnz animations. Quality is very good at the eagle in question.

All in all, I find that the initial eagle is on par with original style eagles (Judas) and share the same trade mark details, and has an acceptable backing support material.

I can not fault it, and I have tried my best to show that it fits the frame.
I belive it to be a minty original eagle of the same style that is on Judas jacket.

No one else has come forward with any in depth analysis or information or really valid information more than general scepticism. Even the so called experts has failed to do so. I think I know why.

It is now up to the readers to make their own judgements and to view material, photos and information.

I am done with trying to shed light in to this case.

Cheers,
Felix

[John Pic]

Felix....good Im glad you are done....but once agaim you make a false statement...every time I have posted those two eagles I have told the same story about them ...but you obviously do not pay attention. I have posted hundreds of eagles and you lump these two into the same category as the Sieder which they are not.

The second thing is you use your words to insinuate that I am a liar I take offense to that and in other circumstances would never tolerate it except that I know you are a young ego driven collector eager to gain expert stature on the forums...more power to you...... but as I have stated many times I dont care what others in this hobby think of me...

I have owned over 13 SS officer tunics and many with bullion eagles some good a few bad...Ive handled many officer uniforms in other colections and had the liesure of examining them closely. Ive held many faked uniforms and near perfect reproductions.....lots of experience...so what year did you say you began collecting?

I should add that had you been collecting SS back in 2000-2001 you would have seen the thread on GDC which compaired an original eagle with one of the Sieder type eagles to show that an original template pattern was used to create them but that the finished product was far different...the symetry and shape of the eagles were the same but the bullion weave was not. These are things always kept in mind when looking at individual pieces...

[Ian Hulley]

How many times you have been expelled from different forums?

To be fair here ... and 'I have no dog in this fight' as someone already said ... John's transient nature through the militaria forums has more to do with the egos of the various forum owners and their funding 'arrangements' than anything else. I have first-hand experience this myself on a forum I used to co-moderate where the owner's ego couldn't face the truth which (as usual) John had dispenced.

Ian.

[Felix]

Felix....good Im glad you are done....but once agaim you make a false statement...every time I have posted those two eagles I have told the same story about them ...but you obviously do not pay attention. I have posted hundreds of eagles and you lump these two into the same category as the Sieder which they are not.

The second thing is you use your words to insinuate that I am a liar I take offense to that and in other circumstances would never tolerate it except that I know you are a young ego driven collector eager to gain expert stature on the forums...more power to you...... but as I have stated many times I dont care what others in this hobby think of me...

I have owned over 13 SS officer tunics and many with bullion eagles some good a few bad...Ive handled many officer uniforms in other colections and had the liesure of examining them closely. Ive held many faked uniforms and near perfect reproductions.....lots of experience...so what year did you say you began collecting?

I should add that had you been collecting SS back in 2000-2001 you would have seen the thread on GDC which compaired an original eagle with one of the Sieder type eagles to show that an original template pattern was used to create them but that the finished product was far different...the symetry and shape of the eagles were the same but the bullion weave was not. These are things always kept in mind when looking at individual pieces...

Why dont you try to give a relevant answer to my post # 65 instead?
(or the other info and photos I have provided)

You may wave around with your experience and this and that as much as you like and you may think I am moron, wannabee or what ever. I know you have done good work and contributions in the past. So has many others. However what we are talking about right now is the bullion eagle that started the thread.

Please stay on topic and the main issue here is the initial eagle posted.

The floor is yours.

//Felix

[Felix]

To be fair here ... and 'I have no dog in this fight' as someone already said ... John's transient nature through the militaria forums has more to do with the egos of the various forum owners and their funding 'arrangements' than anything else. I have first-hand experience this myself on a forum I used to co-moderate where the owner's ego couldn't face the truth which (as usual) John had dispenced.

Ian.

And to be quite fair Ian, and if you take one step further you know that Jpic has been in a lot of heated threads where words, threats and insults were tossed around. You have been around for a while and I dont think you can deny this. There might be other reasons for Jpics kick outs as well, as you have mentioned. I have defended Jpic on several occasions on several forums, because I think he does a good job, but no one is perfect.
When posting a "no dog in the fight" posts I think you should go neutral.

Ian, as your a long time collector, perhaps you would like to share your thoughts on the subject in this thread? Please value the information given. This is after all the main issue here and the reason to post.

//Felix

[Ian Hulley]

I don't have enough genuine first hand knowledge to contribute anything ... it's a shame that others don't follow the same rule.

As for John, hell yes he can upset folk (and I'm sure he'd admitt that) but he's one of the good guys, and certainly NOT the enemy here.

Ian.

[bnz. 42]

As for John, hell yes he can upset folk (and I'm sure he'd admitt that) but he's one of the good guys, and certainly NOT the enemy here.

Ian.

John is not "good" - He is a really great guy with a lot of knowledge especially in bullion eagles. I am glad that we have him here, otherwise I would never have any bullion eagle. Thanks John again for your help! Please just don't call my original eagles "fake" again next time ('azazello's eagle was mine)

[John Pic]

Sorry about that bnz , I was on a roll and it got caught up in the momentum.......I know you are well versed in original items...thank you too...for the nice compliment.

Im done here i have offered relevant advice and it can be taken or left alone...I dont pretend to be perfect nor do I seek perfection or status....Ill leave that up to Felix...he seems to be perfect.

[BOB C]

I'M SURE GLAD I GAVE UP ON THIS SS STUFF 4 YEARS AGO.
YOU GUYS WILL DRIVE EACH OTHER NUTS.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I'M SURE GLAD I GAVE UP ON THIS SS STUFF 4 YEARS AGO.
YOU GUYS WILL DRIVE EACH OTHER NUTS.

But, Momma that's where the FUN is

[oldflagswanted]

more uniform eagles ???

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BOB C
I'M SURE GLAD I GAVE UP ON THIS SS STUFF 4 YEARS AGO.
YOU GUYS WILL DRIVE EACH OTHER NUTS.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But, Momma that's where the FUN is

BC & Dr.S:
Whew, the WAF SS forum does seem really hard core.
Glad I only collect WW2 MGM made uniform eagles.
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