SS Officers eagle

[Naval Enigma]

Felix thanks for the reply,

The Bob Hritz Eagle (sorry about the earlier misspelling Mr. Hritz) is a dead ringer for the tunic mounted (w/ red lines drawn on it) that you posted. They both feel period (in my limited novice feelings) like period items. There is a patina and "looseness" to them. "Character."

I wish we could better a better photograph of the OP eagle.

Nobody wants to get ripped off, doubting one's purchases is a nasty feeling. For a collector being happy with his pieces takes precedent over hard values.

But something is only worth what you can sell it for. And some of the eagles out there, however genuine, seem like hard sells.

I'm going to focus on known variants.

[Felix]

I find it hard to believe how arrogant you are, just because you say it's good the rest of us should just follow along? You overlook the fact that the material and construction is different, and magical because you say so it's a good piece..Even you can't be that narcissistic!

Lot's of my stuff (SS and not) is posted on the forum, please show us your vast original SS collection so we can all see where your "extensive knowledge" comes from. I will bet many of your items will come into question if you based there authenticity on you opinion alone.

My opinions are based on facts that I try to describe as good as possible. How do you manage this task? Where are your facts in this thread? A lot of comments with no backing up? Photo evidence? Comparisons?? I have not seen... Come on!!
Please go ahead and do a search 5 years back on my posts. By this I do not declare that I am god or something. But you act like a child that has lost that bag of candy, and being sour because your knowledge is in question, which in this case is majorly flawed. And questioned by very valid reasons.

Youre comments lack true foundation and it is time for you to find out. I do not mean to insult you in any way. If you take it that way I apologise. I do my mistakes as well. That can also be seen if you do a search.

The fact that collectors comment when they shouldnt have been a major problem in the last years. Maybe you do a should search on yourself, and most of all what has been posten on this forum, and others. You can also find me on German daggers and World war militaria forum.

The floor is yours if you wish to critisise me. I am far from perfect, but I do wish to say that i have some knowledge, and I seek no fights but the truth that benefits all collectors.

//Felix

[bnz. 42]

Now I post the eagle in question

The example Bob Hritz posted

Felix, after comparison, Patrick's eagle (the eagle in question that started this thread) and Bob's eagle are quite different (please see animated image below)

[dhunter93]

My opinions are based on facts that I try to describe as good as possible. How do you manage this task? Where are your facts in this thread? A lot of comments with no backing up? Photo evidence? Comparisons?? I have not seen... Come on!!
Please go ahead and do a search 5 years back on my posts. By this I do not declare that I am god or something. But you act like a child that has lost that bag of candy, and being sour because your knowledge is in question, which in this case is majorly flawed. And questioned by very valid reasons.

Youre comments lack true foundation and it is time for you to find out. I do not mean to insult you in any way. If you take it that way I apologise. I do my mistakes as well. That can also be seen if you do a search.

The fact that collectors comment when they shouldnt have been a major problem in the last years. Maybe you do a should search on yourself, and most of all what has been posten on this forum, and others. You can also find me on German daggers and World war militaria forum.

The floor is yours if you wish to critisise me. I am far from perfect, but I do wish to say that i have some knowledge, and I seek no fights but the truth that benefits all collectors.

//Felix

You want people to agree with you because you have these items in your possession and you want to be able to sell them!

Lets start at the top:

(1) A mint sleeve eagle is posted and frankly it's body and head look ridicules.

(2) It's construction is poor compared to Bob's original.

(3) John Pic posts two fakes that are very close to the one that started this thread.

(4) Many embroidered sleeve eagles are "appearing" lately. BIG RED FLAG!

(5) These are much easier to fake because they are a non standard item.

(6) You like them.. Just kidding

You say I have no facts, yet all you have brought to the table is " Because I say so".

I have no dog in this fight other than protecting collectors from crooked dealers. If pointing out what I see is bad for your business too bad.

[Felix]

Bnz;

Good comparison!

I am sorry to say that I lack the skill to do that.
From what I see, and considering war time hand embroidery, I say they are very much the same.

I think it will be hard to find any "two" hand embroidered bullion insignias that are the same in "100 %". That is how it was war time.
Those that are close to 100% are the traits of machine embroidered RZM insignias.
I think that if you do the same on SS bullion rune collar that would vary the same.

Thanks again for the animation that shows the similarity.

Cheers,

Felix

[dhunter93]

Bnz;

Good comparison!

I am sorry to say that I lack the skill to do that.
From what I see, and considering war time hand embroidery, I say they are very much the same.

I think it will be hard to find any "two" hand embroidered bullion insignias that are the same in "100 %". That is how it was war time.
Those that are close to 100% are the traits of machine embroidered RZM insignias.
I think that if you do the same on SS bullion rune collar that would vary the same.

Thanks again for the animation that shows the similarity.

Cheers,

Felix

Are you out of your mind! They are not even close... You are becoming the SS Minister of propaganda

[bnz. 42]

Patrick's eagle (the eagle that started this thread) and Judas' eagle (the eagle that is "from a jacket with provenance that is also pictured in a well know reference book") are different too.

Judas' eagle and Bob's eagle are different too, if you compare their details.

In short words, all three eagles that you posted are different. Please see more comparison images below.

Patrick's eagle and Judas' eagle




Judas' eagle and Bob's eagle:

[Felix]

You want people to agree with you because you have these items in your possession and you want to be able to sell them!

Excuse me?? Sell what?? I do not even know the seller or have any similar eagle. I do have 3 bullion eagles.

Lets start at the top:

(1) A mint sleeve eagle is posted and frankly it's body and head look ridicules.
Thats your opinion and that is majorly faulty!

(2) It's construction is poor compared to Bob's original.
Wrong again, it is the same base eagle with minor differences. Please compare with Judas eagle that is on a tunic with provenance.

(3) John Pic posts two fakes that are very close to the one that started this thread.
They are completely different which you would know if you had any knowledge and experience of WSS bullion eagles. Not relevant for this thread!

(4) Many embroidered sleeve eagles are "appearing" lately. BIG RED FLAG!
That might be the case, however with knowledge and experience you can sort the bad from the good. obviously you lack that skill.

(5) These are much easier to fake because they are a non standard item.
Partly correct, but again faulty. fakers try to in most of the cases to cope well accepted patterns. Your lack of knowledge becomes more and more obvious.

(6) You like them.. Just kidding
I think they are original because they are the same pattern as verified originals. if I like them or not is not relevant. it is only relvant if they can be original, which has been shown in this case.

You say I have no facts, yet all you have brought to the table is " Because I say so".
It is clear, you have no real facts, just the position to critise because others have or that this is a rarer pattern eagle (but not that rare)

I have no dog in this fight other than protecting collectors from crooked dealers. If pointing out what I see is bad for your business too bad.

I have no dog at all in this fight, but I want relevant facts to come forward and no false information based on rumoirs or loose specualtions or go with the flow opinions. is it clear?

//Felix

[John Pic]

The difference is this tiny fact you can see where on Bobs eagle the bullion wraps itself around the unterlagen...the other is woven rather flatly to the base wool.


No those eagles I posted were made by making a Scan of an original and weaving them exactly like the originals...and you Felix may feel that has no relevance and try to dismiss that..but it does have relevance..."and I'll tell you why"...as Wesley from the Princess Bride once said.....

The type of Eagle Bob posted is not uncommon and over the past several years a few tunics appeared with that style and were sold on Dealer sites...well Fakers just make copy the close up photos send them to thier embroiderer...and there you have your relevant answer. I clearly remember a tunic posted for sale by Ron Distelhorst having that type of Eagle and also ond sold by Relics of the Reich some years ago...any enterprising faker would easily make copies of the insignias....which is what Mr. Babcock used to do...I know I watched him do it from pictures of items in Manions catalogs.

For the record I like Bobs eagle

So once more I submit to you all that trying to make this an exact science will never really happen...and yes it is a minefield.

[Felix]

Bnz;

Again thanks for good comparisons! That shows that they are the same.

If you have experience and have collected hand embroidered insignia you know they differ. It is the human touch that is so relevant. Machine embroidered insignias, they are the same, or close to 99 or 98 % depending on thread for the day, tension of the machine etc.

So, it is obvious these eagles are the same.

Thanks for showing that these eagles are the same (which was pretty clear for those with an eye for details already from the start)

Cheers,
Felix

[dhunter93]

//Felix

Photographic evidence is posted and you still disregard it...You need help...


P.S. The first step is admitting you have a problem

[Felix]

The difference is this tiny fact you can see where on Bobs eagle the bullion wraps itself around the unterlagen...the other is woven rather flatly to the base wool.


No those eagles I posted were made by making a Scan of an original and weaving them exactly like the originals...and you Felix may feel that has no relevance and try to dismiss that..but it does have relevance..."and I'll tell you why"...as Wesley from the Princess Bride once said.....

The type of Eagle Bob posted is not uncommon and over the past several years a few tunics appeared with that style and were sold on Dealer sites...well Fakers just make copy the close up photos send them to thier embroiderer...and there you have your relevant answer. I clearly remember a tunic posted for sale by Ron Distelhorst having that type of Eagle and also ond sold by Relics of the Reich some years ago...any enterprising faker would easily make copies of the insignias....which is what Mr. Babcock used to do...I know I watched him do it from pictures of items in Manions catalogs.

For the record I like Bobs eagle

So once more I submit to you all that trying to make this an exact science will never really happen...and yes it is a minefield.

You show different eagles that is not relevant for this kind of eagle. These eagles are old and well known copies that most serious collectors know of. They wont fool many collectors that has good knowledge. Please come up with better facts if you want to prove anything.

How do you judge Judas eagle? You admitted it is an original? Yes you did after hard convincing from me. Yet you claim there exists no eagles with white backing? Allthough they are the same in to details. Then you have to admit you were in error.

Where do you get these facts from? Where are the responds to the examples I have posted?
You have a good knowledge of bullion eagles and so do I. You know that. I would not go in to a disucussion with out a good case. Which I have. These eagles are IMO real, and I have seen no good fakes of this style. I am rather good at spotting fake bullion sleeve eagles, which you also are aware of.

It is hard to judge the eagle in question because of the light and the quality of the photo. I have studied tons of bullion insignias and do have some in my collection. it does not make me god, but I do have some knowledge behind my statements.

The one that has produced any real facts in this thread is me. Others have not. I would of couse not dismiss Bob Hritz contribution and opinion.
besides that it is all feeling, and no hard substane. Those who know me, knows it takes more than that. Again I am not god, but it is rather obvious to me.

Cheers,
Felix

[bnz. 42]

What I find also interesting is that the eagle posted by "azazello" in this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=392179&page=2 (post-30) and the eagle that Bob's posted here are very similar, but our eagle experts, including John Pic, did not like that eagle back then.. and now they have no problems with it

[Felix]

Photographic evidence is posted and you still disregard it...You need help...


P.S. The first step is admitting you have a problem

Disregarding your comments again because of your huge lack of knowledge!!

Back to the school books for you! Then you may play. Right now youre a sour kid!

Please do not try to play smart or post not relevant info.
Were are here to sort out problems.

Humour you do with your pals when having a beer.

This is another matter.

Thanks for understanding!

//Felix

[dhunter93]

Disregarding your comments again because of your huge lack of knowledge!!

Back to the school books for you! Then you may play. Right now youre a sour kid!

Please do not try to play smart or post not relevant info.
Were are here to sort out problems.

Humour you do with your pals when having a beer.

This is another matter.

Thanks for understanding!

//Felix

The minister of propaganda has spoken!