SS Officers eagle

[Patrick W]

Hi Guys

Any hope for this one or made in Pakistan?

Thanks

Patrick

[Patrick W]

odd reverse

[herrgeezer]

Hello Patrick. While this eagle looks pretty good I'd say consider the price that is being asked on the site where your saw it. If it were good this one would be long gone.

[John Pic]

It appears to be lacking the unterlagen..closer exam could tell for certain..if it is it is definately a fake and for the record I dont like the backing.

[Felix]

This is the same "style" of eagle that recently was discussed. Details in the bullion work and the white backing was on the agenda for debate.
However this style of eagle is found on a tunic with provenance (judas tunic) and I have seen lose ones in advanced collections.

Hard to say if it has an unterlagen from those small pics.
My guess is that is has, and that it is just a minty example. (have to say that the snow white backing also looks very new and the cut of the white cloth as well.)

However so far the signs tells that it might be a minty original.

Would be interesting to see closer photos.

Perhaps the poster can give us info about if there is a card board template under the bullion threads?

//Felix

[Mark Edward C]

ss eagle

[Ian Hulley]

and for the record I dont like the backing.

Was my thought as well, I'm no authority so didn't comment.

Ian

[groucho]

so tight so new, minty looking

one almost expects to see some unraveling, looseness of material, something imperfect no expert

[Felix]

Hello Gentlemen!

In this thread there has been further discussion about the style of eagle, unterlagen or no unterlagen and the colour of the backing material. All valid and interesting topics regarding the SS bullion sleeve eagle. A very sought after and rare piece of SS insignia. The purpose of this this and my following posts are to try to shed some light and complimentary information.

First of all IMHO this style of eagle is an original pattern. I do believe that the eagle posted is original. Perhaps it is the best and the most honest to clarify that. This very very style is found on a jacket with provenance. I know that some collectors doubt this style. I do not. There has also turned up loose examples. This eagle also stands on its own merits IMO when it comes to the quality criteria that is common for SS bullion sleeve eagles.
There are a few well know styles of SS bullion sleeve eagles that circulate more frequently, and this style is one of them. One style has the makers stamp of 122 on the H rzm tab. These eagles are more or less in the same style in to finer details. Another rather frequent style is the so called Karl Wolff style eagle. Several fine examples has been posted of this style of eagle, including from TonyS.

I have seen many high end fakes and also original eagles. When comparing the best fakes that I know of, they more or less share the same traits. Very well done and sterile, showing barely no sign of war time hand done bullion work. Regarding this eagle I doubt that fakers would copy this style in to the fine details of the originals.

The discussion about unterlagen is of course highly valid. IMHO the thickness of the unterlagen varied. This can be seen when studying SS bullion rune collar tabs. Early rune tabs did IMO often have thicker unterlagen. (for those who still dont know what an unterlagen is - it is a card board template used to make quality bullion work of the same shape in larger numbers) Therefore when judging an insignia from photos alone, it might be hard to tell if it has an unterlagen or not. In some cases the unterlagen is clearly visible and in some cases very hard to see. Hands on can determine this. (I am surprised the poster has not tried to confirm this)

I have done some searching about other bullion eagles and what possible backing support material they could have.

I have in my investegations found that the backing support material varied a lot. I have of course focused on the bullion eagles with a ligther coloured or white backed support cloth. They may come from Heer, LW or Kriegsmarine. The purpose of the backing material was the same, to give support in the form of an extra layer to make the bullion embroidery work more stable and easier to execute in a elegant manner. To avoid sloppiness.

Please view some examples of white or light coloured backing materials I have found after som search on examples posted on this forum and some internet dealers. They were not that hard to find. Most frequent are of course the darker materials. However white, cream or light brown were rather common. First example is of KM eagle with a very strict though generously cut white backing, something like the white cloth backing seen on the SS bullion eagle posted.

More examples will follow. Some are covered by the commonly seen black oil cloth/paper. Never-the-less the white backing material can be seen under. It does not matter if it is a for a dark uniform material, as in the case of KM or for lighter grey as for LW. I have found that this supports my theory that the backing supportive cloth layer material is of no relavance to the color of the uniform or the military branch it belonged to. It is simply an extra layer that was not to been seen again once the insignia was sewn on. White cloth can be seen also as supportive layer on SS insignias. Especially on some SS cuff titles. I have shown that in another thread.

The colour of the backing cloth of the last eagle might be a surprise.

//Felix

[Felix]

kriegsmarine1front

[Felix]

kriegsmarine1rev

[Felix]

Km2front

[Felix]

km2rev

[Felix]

km3rev

[Felix]

LW1front - white cloth is there under the dark oil cloth and almost over sized.