Waffen SS Untersturmfuhrer's (1st. lt.) panzer jacket (wrapper)

[Glenn McInnes]

Lord, if that isn't the "pot calling the kettle black"; sorry to the forum members, could not resist.

B. N. Singer

I'm sorry ..... but.....




Glenn

[Mike Davis]

Ah, the old familiar refrains - complaining about pricing, hinting at conspiracy, and railing at the experts (and yes, real experts do in fact exist). I must be reading on the SS forum.

[bnz. 42]

The wrap in question also does not have stitching on the sleeves (upper part), which you generaly find on original wraps.




Below is original with stitching on the sleeve:




Below is another original wrap from Wolfe-Hardin collection:




And here is close-up of the wrap in question, no stitchings in place:




I checked wraps in Beaver's book (Uniforms of the Waffen-SS), all "issued" wraps have these stitchings.

I guess it explains why the dealer priced this Officer's wrap just 3000 more than NCO that he has on his web site:

[Dr. Strangelove]

Wrap

I agree the Wolfe-Hardin Jacket is real, not sure when the pieces met. And that rank tab looks like a Crack Wh### sewed it down. I know that Wrap has been around forever and I don't care.

[tgn]

Ah, the old familiar refrains - complaining about pricing, hinting at conspiracy, and railing at the experts (and yes, real experts do in fact exist). I must be reading on the SS forum.

Tom

[N.C. Wyeth]

. . .

[Dr. Strangelove]

What !

N.C., if you start holding back it won't be any fun, wait there is always John Pic !

[onkelharmel]

Dear Mr. bnz.42! I own 2 SS-wrappers and 1 army wrapper, non have the stitching you are talking about.
Look into M.Beaver "Uniforms of the Waffen-SS" Vol 3, page 727-759, no stitching you mentioned. But - nothing is impossible and "Ponsonby, there is more between heaven and earth as you can imagine" -Lord Beaconsfield, he was not only talking about SS Obersturmführer tunic from LAH, or a Panzer wrapper.
Best regards
Heinz

[John Pic]

It appears that there are three mindsets...the Collectors who have not been around forever and feel that the appraisal system is way off the scales ...no conspiracy...just plain stupidity..paying that much as I said in a previous post before the fun began...compaired to Art or Fine Gemstones.

Then there are the guys we know have bought these items at far lower prices in the past and in some cases took the extra steps to find the items direct from the GI...as I pointed out as well....kept them for many years and are DELIGHTED(admit it c'mon) to see some are foolish enough to pay the ridiculous prices...no conspiracy against you...though you might feel it is..more power to you selling your "investments" at a huge profit..after all thats capitalism at its best right. Bob said it...its a "Game"...and some make it that.Very rarely one of these guys lets a real one out of the bag but thats very rarely.These guys because of thier time in the hobby are seen as experts and thier advice is sought out here and elsewhere. But as someone pointed out the same group insisted a Black Sturmbannfuhrers wrap was real and it turned out not to be so...Andre the gentleman who started this thread, almost lost $40,000 on that deal...I advised him not to buy it , and I was just unsure not positive it was bad.

Then there is the guy Andre who started the post who asks for advice and happens to be my friend...Peter Manzie mentioned Steve Wolfe...well my advice to Andre in public here was not to waste $23,000 on tunics with no provence for the reasons I gave and now we see some questions being raised by our enlightened young collector friend Bnz....who has learned to think independant of the machine God bless him. Thereare alot of "newer" collectors from out side the american cirles reading and learning so I feel they deserve a chance to think about things rather than become mindless puppies.

In private I suggested to Andre in an email that if he really wants to spend that much he contact Steve Wolfe and see what he has and fly out to visit him...while I dont care for Wolfes prices either... Andre has a better chance finding what he wants there than anywhere else. He wouldve liked to buy the Cavalry officer uniform I owned but I already sold it.
In the meantime we are enjoying the debate as it shows the opinions from all ends of the spectrum of collecting.No insults are inteneded by me to hit on anyone in particular..sorry if you felt heartache at that.

[PMan]

It appears that there are three mindsets...the Collectors who have not been around forever and feel that the appraisal system is way off the scales ...no conspiracy...just plain stupidity..paying that much as I said in a previous post before the fun began...compaired to Art or Fine Gemstones.

Then there are the guys we know have bought these items at far lower prices in the past and in some cases took the extra steps to find the items direct from the GI...as I pointed out as well....kept them for many years and are DELIGHTED(admit it c'mon) to see some are foolish enough to pay the ridiculous prices...no conspiracy against you...though you might feel it is..more power to you selling your "investments" at a huge profit..after all thats capitalism at its best right. Bob said it...its a "Game"...and some make it that.Very rarely one of these guys lets a real one out of the bag but thats very rarely.These guys because of thier time in the hobby are seen as experts and thier advice is sought out here and elsewhere. But as someone pointed out the same group insisted a Black Sturmbannfuhrers wrap was real and it turned out not to be so...Andre the gentleman who started this thread, almost lost $40,000 on that deal...I advised him not to buy it , and I was just unsure not positive it was bad.

Then there is the guy Andre who started the post who asks for advice and happens to be my friend...Peter Manzie mentioned Steve Wolfe...well my advice to Andre in public here was not to waste $23,000 on tunics with no provence for the reasons I gave and now we see some questions being raised by our enlightened young collector friend Bnz....who has learned to think independant of the machine God bless him. Thereare alot of "newer" collectors from out side the american cirles reading and learning so I feel they deserve a chance to think about things rather than become mindless puppies.

In private I suggested to Andre in an email that if he really wants to spend that much he contact Steve Wolfe and see what he has and fly out to visit him...while I dont care for Wolfes prices either... Andre has a better chance finding what he wants there than anywhere else. He wouldve liked to buy the Cavalry officer uniform I owned but I already sold it.
In the meantime we are enjoying the debate as it shows the opinions from all ends of the spectrum of collecting.No insults are inteneded by me to hit on anyone in particular..sorry if you felt heartache at that.

Hi John,
Nice of you to refer people over to Steve Wolfe. I am sure he really needs the money, unlike Kris Anderson of Oakleaf Militaria who is a single father supporting a household and 2 pre-teen sons on his commission based business. Yes, John, please send Steve Wolfe a regards, from Kris. As for your constant harping on "your opinion" of ridiculous high prices broadcast worldwide on this forum, I am sure we all wanted our collections devalued anyway. Including your own. Well done John!

[John Pic]

Well perhaps if he is a struggling single father he might want a more stable profession than selling militaria...

I have my friends best interest in mind, if Kris can afford to sell these things and raise a family then he is not doing so bad ....but I would still advise against paying that much for unproven pieces...even if the seller is Oliver Twist or Bob Crachet...and who says a collection is "devalued" who put that value on it in the first place?

I could care less what you think..with your mentality maybe I should go out and buy a brand new Chrysler SUV because the company is hurting and they have kids to take care of.

With all your yapping you havent said one bit about these uniforms and why they are so great.

By the way I have no opinion on the uniforms other than I feel they are not worth the price...Andre is free to make his choices of who he wishes to buy from no one is forcing the issue..he reads all the opinions here.

[bnz. 42]

Dear Mr. bnz.42! I own 2 SS-wrappers and 1 army wrapper, non have the stitching you are talking about.
Look into M.Beaver "Uniforms of the Waffen-SS" Vol 3, page 727-759, no stitching you mentioned. But - nothing is impossible and "Ponsonby, there is more between heaven and earth as you can imagine" -Lord Beaconsfield, he was not only talking about SS Obersturmführer tunic from LAH, or a Panzer wrapper.
Best regards
Heinz

I have exactly same book and I am not sure how well you looked at the pictures, but you can believe me, every fre卐king wrap pictured there has those stitchings on sleeves. I just don't want to waste time to scan them all for you only to help you to see it better.

[Richard P]

The stitching bnz. 42 refers to in post #48 is no indicator of original versus fake. That stitching is there for a purpose...or not. Some manufacturers extended the lining under the arm pit down the sleeve a little ways, that stitching holds the piece in place. That addition is at the whim of whoever manufactured the wrap. I tend to see them more in earlier wraps, but that is not absolute either. I have more wraps without that piece than I do "with".

This is definitely not a benchmark for making a determination of original versus fake.

Richard

[kevb]

Well said John (again)

Kevb

[Vid]

Hi John,
Nice of you to refer people over to Steve Wolfe. I am sure he really needs the money, unlike Kris Anderson of Oakleaf Militaria who is a single father supporting a household and 2 pre-teen sons on his commission based business. Yes, John, please send Steve Wolfe a regards, from Kris.

Peter,

So social status is now a factor in who we buy items from and who we trust with high end purchases??. I do not get that, so the guy who has teenage daughters and a single dad should get a deal on a tunic or wrap that is in question as opposed to a wrap from a rich guy??.

Why should we trust either of them??. Kris Is a nice guy, and never had issue with Wolfe, but if you think parting out 20k should be based on who needs the money you are certainly out of your mind. It sounds like your saying buy the seller out of pity, not the wrap.

Maybe Kris would prefer you do not stick up for him.