a lot of Allach looking for opinions

[TonyS]

Hi Mark,

It's not up to me to keep the thread open as I don't moderate on the WAF. But they do have stricter guidlines for personal attacks than over on M-C-F and I can see Gary locking the thread if you guys don't cool it.

[Vid]

Hi Mark,

It's not up to me to keep the thread open as I don't moderate on the WAF. But they do have stricter guidlines for personal attacks than over on M-C-F and I can see Gary locking the thread if you guys don't cool it.

There has been no language or any serious personal attacks at this juncture and no reason to pull the thread if we can manage to keep it on the vase, but it seems that my opponent cant keep himself from opening fire with inuendo, where as I am just trying to state fact on the vase itself.

It should come as no surprise as he certainly does not want to see any positive comments come forth.

[mpaul]

Only ONE peice is broken?

So now it's only ONE single peice in my collection you say is bad....your broad statements of fact are biting your argument upon dissection.

You paint with too broad of a brush.

The swagger stick you refer to is removeable on some peices of Frederick the Great and not so on others. That, is a fact. (maybe you didn't know that?)

Oh well, I gotta go blacklight them candle holders, they look great with all my other broke stuff!

I'm thinking of selling it all to the Russians anyway and getting into tanks. There is some company making them to order and you can buy surplus ones for real.

Seriously speaking, If anyone wants to make me an offer on any of the Allach I have, make it now. You should run it by the gnome first tho...it might be fake or broken, or repaired...only he knows.

Mark

[Vid]

John,

I received a message from Robin Lumsden regarding comments he made in regards to your piece being in his mind "Original and probably unique". He kindly allowed me to quote them.

He is well known and a stand up guy with a background in SS regalia and a noted author.

Although I have obtained several Bohemia maker marks that coincide very nicely with the mark on yours, they are export marks.The non-export pre-war markings are even more rare than the Allach mark itself, as they exported most of their wares. I have contacted a couple people trying to locate a mark but these are very tough to find and add additional creedence as there is no evidence of fakes on this mark either that I am aware of. Six hours of web surfing and 7 previous Herman Historica sale catalogs, period advertising and documentation have failed to get me the mark, not to mention fakebay.

An additional authority seems to be having log-in problems and has been unable to address this post as of yet.

I will need additional time it seems.

Best,

Kris

[DRP58]

I am quite surprised at how much discussion both good and bad has gone on regarding this particular Vase. As I told the potential owner a few weeks ago, this Vase will bring a tremendous amount of scrutiny due to it's markings so if you like the Vase purchase it, but don't expect to sell it very easily because most people will stay clear of it. But that doesn't mean it is not authentic.

Like most other pieces of Militaria (dagger, medal, etc.) that comes out of the woodwork and never before seen, there will always be suspicions of its authenticity. The top dealers and collectors in their particular field will all look at it and decide if the piece looks good or not. If the consensus is that the piece looks to be good then the majority may accept it. Obviously these experts will follow certain criteria's as to how to ascertain the authenticity of a particular item. They may not know why it was produced or for whom but they will know that it is a period piece by using these criteria's.

I believe this is what we have in this particular Vase. I have handled more Allach than most so I am comfortable in forming an opinion on this Vase.

This Vase is correctly marked with the green Allach in the raised octagon that is an undisputed makers mark of Allach. The impressed # 503 is also correct for this type vase as 84 total Vases were produced in 1938-39 with an additional 22 Vases produced in 1939 that were painted. The application of the Bohemia markings over stamping the Allach markings is in itself puzzling but was done correctly. The glaze is applied over both markings before the final firing of the Vase. I've seen pieces of porcelain with both the Allach and Bohemia marks present but they were usually side by side not overlapped but I believe these also to be authentic. Oswald Pohl, head of the economic enterprises of the SS, ordered to acquire the porcelain manufacturer Bohemia in mid 1939. The defeat of Czechoslovakia in June 1939 was the political and military precondition for such an economic activity by the SS. Particularly since Bohemia was once a factory that had been in Jewish possession. Now we have two entities, Allach known for it's porcelain and Bohemia which is known for it's cut glass artistry. Obviously there had to be a transition phase between the two manufacturers. This particular Vase has both of the makers markings as well as the manufacturing strengths of both companies, porcelain and cut decorations. Allach had never made this type of decoration before so it is plausible that this Vase has the combined artistry of both manufacturers during this early transitional period.

Let us not forget that pieces of Allach porcelain were not allowed to leave the factory because of flaws of one kind or another. This dual overlapping makers mark could have been considered a flaw and left on the shelf only to be taken by the liberating forces who plundered the Allach factory. One will never know the reason for this peculiar mark but with all else considered, I believe this Vase to be authentic.

This is only the humble opinion of one man.

Dennis R. Porell

[mpaul]

Thanks Dennis

Dennis,

I think your thoughts regarding this to be a form of early transitional period piece make a lot of sense. How it really came to be I guess will never be known factually. The piece is interesting in itself and maybe more like it will come out over time.

My initial thoughts, reading back through the thread, was that it was either a "very, very early piece or a total fake" seems in retrospect, a valid assessment given the pictures only and not having your depth of experience.

I am glad you weighed in on the subject.

Best Regards...

Mark

[John1919]

Dennis,

I think your thoughts regarding this to be a form of early transitional period piece make a lot of sense. How it really came to be I guess will never be known factually. The piece is interesting in itself and maybe more like it will come out over time.

My initial thoughts, reading back through the thread, was that it was either a "very, very early piece or a total fake" seems in retrospect, a valid assessment given the pictures only and not having your depth of experience.

I am glad you weighed in on the subject.

on Allach porcelain Best Regards...

Mark

Kris, Dennis, Mark and Everyone,

Thank you all very much for all your thoughtful comments and opinions!

The intensity of the discussion at times, in my opinion, only reinforced what a great hobby this is with so many people so passionate in their level of interest to understand history and its artifacts.

I am especially appreciative of Dennis providing comments based upon his vast knowledge and expertise in in the field. While reading Dennis' comments, I couldn't help but think how appropriate and timely it is that Dennis is authoring a new book that will update and expand our knowledge and understanding in this field.

As a relative newcomer to collecting Allach porcelain, I learned a tremendous amount from all of you-thank you again!

John

[Vid]

This piece has been discussed heavily on other forums and the biggest problem with it the continued statement of "fact" made about it.

The only fact is that it resembles the style of Allach vase model 503. There were 4 different styles in the that shape according to the published information regarding Allach.

I am of the opinion that it is very questionable and would not accept it as Allach, it looks like a Japanese art deco piece. Maybe it was, and was presented to the Japanese for some reason?

To immediately accept it as the Holy Grail is detrimental to those in the hobby who study and collect it.

A lot more convincing is needed here before we start to see other pieces marked in this manner...going against the tide of known marks and accepted because one is stating "facts" that may well not be.

A skilled porcelain repair man could have enhanced a reletively obscure and inexpensive piece to make it a 'one off'. The SS Rider that Dennis sold has been so skillfully repaired one could not tell it had ever been damaged.

My advice is to think long and hard about it before coming to a factual conclusion. The presentation of a theory is all we have here so far.

Mark

There are 2 versions not 4. Japanese art deco?

take the stand that it is not Allach

Mark

Really? never would have guessed that

It would now appear that Himmler's personal staff allowed this to happen, a Bohemia mark placed over the Allach mark?

The doctrine of the S.S. was strict and any deviations from Himmler's wish's were not treated lightly. This was one of his personal pet projects and I am now having a harder time beleiving that the S.S. , who oversaw the Allach works and all of it's products, would allow any mark to be placed over the Allach mark. The reverse would be more believable...the Allach mark over the Bohemia mark.

Mark

Maybe Himmler was in the bathroom or tending chickens?

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

This quest of yours borders on the sophomoric so I will humor you and your point of view. Your arguments are all purely speculative and threatening to those who do not subscribe to your theories.

I am not softening....the placement of the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark is obscene, in my opinion. See how easy it is to use the word opinion?

I will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.

Mark

No they don't have to take my argument seriously, but its the same argument you just praised

Kris,

That "I saved Mark Paul from great financial disaster" story is threadbare. Sure, it was a nice thing to do, and I was appreciative. Still am, but you need to look for another story. One event does not make you an expert, but to you it obviously does.

Mark

I love the way you show appreciation

Kris,

will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.

These "car crash" type's of posting bring a lot of traffic to see the bodies

Mark

How does that Tarmac feel?

Dennis,

My initial thoughts, reading back through the thread, was that it was either a "very, very early piece or a total fake" seems in retrospect, a valid assessment given the pictures only and not having your depth of experience.

Mark

Thats a valid assessment? That is the opinion of a squirrel who was too insecure in his knowledge to make a true opinion

Mr. Paul is this piece correct?, Well? its either real or fake, I hope this helps!!

You used every argument possible, discarded every legitimate argument made, and never looked at the vase itself as much as your intent of challenging me, as some youngster who knows nothing.

I guess if someone wanted to ask you a question regarding Allach, you would just pick up the phone and call Dennis Porell and then just answer the question based on his knowledge.

The argument was made, but now you bow to Dennis and use you squirrel comment "Well its either very early or a total fake" you cant have it both ways Mark.

You are weak, and your knowledge or lack there of shows so strongly that I can comfortably walk away with the opinion that you have no idea what your talking about.

But thank you for all your great answer's and wealth of information you displayed on this topic.

[Vid]

Kris, Dennis, Mark and Everyone,

Thank you all very much for all your thoughtful comments and opinions!

The intensity of the discussion at times, in my opinion, only reinforced what a great hobby this is with so many people so passionate in their level of interest to understand history and its artifacts.

I am especially appreciative of Dennis providing comments based upon his vast knowledge and expertise in in the field. While reading Dennis' comments, I couldn't help but think how appropriate and timely it is that Dennis is authoring a new book that will update and expand our knowledge and understanding in this field.

As a relative newcomer to collecting Allach porcelain, I learned a tremendous amount from all of you-thank you again!

John

John,

I congratulate you on a fine piece! It was great that you were able to obtain it and I enjoyed our conversations on and off the boards.

You are a true gentlemen and I am glad that a person such as yourself had the opportunity to obtain such a rare and beautiful variant attributed to Allach.

Kind Regards,

Kris Lindblom

[mpaul]

the gnome speaks!

Kris Lindblom,

I'm going to let that post speak for itself and let the forum see what you have become.



Mark

[Vid]

Kris Lindblom,

I'm going to let that post speak for itself and let the forum see what you have become.

Mark

Thats fine with me Mark, I hope they read it all as well. What I have become now that this appears to be over is a person who no longer has any interest in commenting on Allach porcelain on a public forum. So I guess you will have to study on your own now and draw your own conclusions or call Dennis for answers.

Kind Regards,

Kris Lindblom