a lot of Allach looking for opinions

[TonyS]

Allach Markings, Process of Application and Fakes

Tony,

I am glad your amused as well, I might as well not bother to even defend myself.

Later and God bless us all!! everyone

Okay now you've filled it in it makes more sense.

You have to keep a sense of humor in this field - when these discussions get too serious and heated it's when threads get locked and collectors fall out with one another. I was just trying to lighten the mood - not mock you........

Besides, my theory could be right on the money.......just like Otto on Evita

[Vid]

Okay now you've filled it in it makes more sense.

You have to keep a sense of humor in this field - when these discussions get too serious and heated it's when threads get locked and collectors fall out with one another. I was just trying to lighten the mood - not mock you........

Besides, my theory could be right on the money.......just like Otto on Evita

No problem Tony, I have done the same myself.

But there are two things for certain, that piece is real and I am done with the crap.

Best,

Kris

[mpaul]

The horror, the horror

Kris,

You wonder why no one else comes to support you? I certainly don't. The vindictive and fueled venom you posess can kill any form of friendship.

That "I saved Mark Paul from great financial disaster" story is threadbare. Sure, it was a nice thing to do, and I was appreciative. Still am, but you need to look for another story. One event does not make you an expert, but to you it obviously does.

You have the address, O Great Obewan....write the check for what I helped you out with. I did my favor and it's the last one I will ever do for you...carve that in your arm.

Mark

[John1919]

Allach Markings, Process of Application and Fakes

Later and God bless us all!! everyone

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to compliment Kris on his excellent summary of how to identify real vs. reproduction Allach marks-very professional!! With this work I think we can all agree Kris has, and is contributing immensely to our hobby and helping to keep us from spending our hard earned money on fakes and reproductions. Kris, I just hope the forgers aren't tuning in

As I mentioned to some of you in PMs, I used to collect Third Reich pistols. After a while I did not feel it necessary to disassemble a pistol (remember towards the end of the war authentic guns were created with mismatched parts and finishes due to the haste in production) to determine whether a piece was "good" (or not). Rather I would step back and look at the piece in total (tone of blueing, wear patterns, mill or polishing marks, etc.). Taking this "totality" approach, recognizing pieces that were not original (or "messed with") became easy after gaining experience in the field. I became more confident of conclusions I reached on this basis than any other indicator. On this basis, I never got burned on a gun but some pretty unique and interesting items did come into my possession that I might have not purchased had I taken taken a no risk, go by the textbook approach. Kris is taking such a "totality" approach in his critical ( and fact based) assessment of the veracity of this vase under discussion.

I therefore strongly agree with Kris that the strongest argument for the originality of the piece is the "totality"of the piece itself (i.e. the total sum of the the artistic design, the marks, the quality of the execution, etc.). After the destruction of many of the Third Reich's records (in many cases intentional) and more than 60 years of time past we will probably never understand WHY a particular piece may have been produced. It is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to have an objective argument about the WHY a particular piece may have been created unless the appropriate documentation has survived. It therefore seems the best we can do is have a objective argument on the veracity of the piece based upon the artistic design and physical characteristics of piece itself .

On the above basis, the questions I would then ask myself are:

1) IF Allach and Bohemia, decided to jointly create a piece, would this piece meet the high technical and artistic standards of both individual companies (and the overseeing SS)?

2) Would the artistic contributions of each company in the work be consistent with the individual company's expertise and would the piece, in total, be artistically unique and better than either company could produce by itself? Otherwise why would two companies (or the SS) choose to do a joint project at all? Should not the offspring of Allach and Bohemia contain the DNA of both parents?

3) Does the piece possess markings that are period and technically correct for both companies?

I believe in the case of this particular vase the answers to these three above questions are "yes":

1) In my humble opinion, the quality of this piece does not only meet Allach's high standards of design and execution for vase production and design, it EXCEEDS them (please see original photo posted above). The cut decoration clearly requires a different (and probably higher) skill set than that used on typical Allach vase production and is typical for Bohemian artisans.

2) Allach is unsurpassed for its porcelain quality and the clean, modern design of its vases. Similarly, Bohemia (as a region) is well recognized for its high level of skill in creating cut designs. Together, the two companies produced a piece that unquestionably unique, very high quality and could not have been as well by either company independently.

3) Kris has very professionally addressed the veracity of the Allach markings on the piece. Based upon Bohemia reference markings available with firm "time stamps", the Bohemia marking is correct (can be discussed more if desired).

Then, WHY was this vase created? I don't think we will ever know. Do I none the less objectively believe (as opposed to wishful thinking) that this vase was the joint work of Allach and Bohemia Ceramics Works as its markings indicate? Based upon all the totality of the facts surrounding this piece and the piece itself, I do believe it is original and authentic.

Because my wife and I don't intend to sell this piece, our peace with the veracity of the vase is its most important validation. From an historical perspective however I would hope this piece is not easily dismissed based upon dated reference works as in doing so we might lose some clues to the past and impede our advancement of knowledge in the future.

Best regards to all,

John

[mpaul]

Surprised?

John,

What a surprise!

Mark

[John1919]

John,

What a surprise!

Mark

Mark,

Do we disagree on any of the factual content in my recent post-including the value of Kris' detailed analysis of how to differentiate genuine vs. facsimile Allach markings? If so, please let me know-perhaps I overlooked something or I didn't well represent my argument..

I know we have some disagreement on the final conclusion but we'll probably have to respectfully agree to disagree. Short of coming up with a time dated photo or original documentation on the vase it hard to "prove" anything that is unique to be original and authentic. If that standard was applied to paintings we would't ever discover any previously unknown works.

On the other hand, if forgery were the objective of this piece why would you create a unique design that would beg for a higher level of scrutiny than if it had a plain white glaze finish (would be less work and less chance to make a misstep that might be detected as well)?

Best regards,

John

[TonyS]

There have been expert forgers make forgeries for all kinds of reasons besides money.

For practice to improve their skill level, to get revenge on museums and certain collectors, to prove how well a forgery can be done to disbelievers. Even Michaelangelo got caught making at least one fake.....

Normally this is done in the world of high end paintings (Van Gogh, Renoir, Monet, etc) but that does not rule out lower end items.

Look at some of the links at the bottom of the Wikipedia article to see some of the more interesting ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_forgery


In my joke about Odessa, who can say an artist did not take an original white Allach piece and try to "improve it" or practice their skill on it? Maybe even an employee from Bohemia. You could come up with any number of stories to explain this piece. Done, pre war, wartime, post war no one will probably ever know and you would spend more having it scientifically analysed than it is worth.

If as Kris says it's an original Allach piece altered by Bohemia, then to me it has less value than the equivalent unaltered Allach piece, which is not much to begin with.

As I said before - if an item needs a big explanation to explain its anomalies then most thinking collectors will avoid it.

John if you are happy with it (and it's not such a bad design) and willing to keep it then great.

I think this thread has pretty well run it's course.

[Vid]

Kris,

You wonder why no one else comes to support you? I certainly don't. The vindictive and fueled venom you posess can kill any form of friendship.

That "I saved Mark Paul from great financial disaster" story is threadbare. Sure, it was a nice thing to do, and I was appreciative. Still am, but you need to look for another story. One event does not make you an expert, but to you it obviously does.

You have the address, O Great Obewan....write the check for what I helped you out with. I did my favor and it's the last one I will ever do for you...carve that in your arm.

Mark

Mark,

Thats just great, but look at the bright side, now you can take this information and use it for your arguments and sound like you know what your talking about without using out of date reference material.

Your problem is you throw money at piece's and think thats all there is to it, broken, repaired, missing pieces, no biggy!! its a great deal.

Maybe you should stick to daggers and guns, or possibly take up Tupperware as it is quite nice comes in multiple colors and designs and you can fill them with cookies and not have to worry about dropping a piece as they bounce. I have your address no need to worry about that sir.

May the force be with you!!

Obewan Kanobi

[Vid]

There should be enough evidence in the above thread to make a reasonable person think twice about discounting this vase as a fake or forgery as opposed to what it says it is.

I have done what I can up to this point and I have no question in my mind and believe I have spelled out every logical and factual reason for my original conclusion.

This piece has eluded me for 20+ years, I knew it was out there but never found it, and once it raised its head it was obvious to me, but I expected it to be this way.

These items are not studied in the same fashion as daggers or guns or whatever, the evidence suggests that the piece was marked at the same time and then glazed and adorned at that point of production.

Nice piece and good luck!!

[mpaul]

This piece has eluded me for 20+ years, I knew it was out there but never found it, and once it raised its head it was obvious to me, but I expected it to be this way.

Holy moly...that about sums it up....I can't beleive you would make a statement like that.

Got any more Allach things you know about (but nobody else does) that you can give us a line on so we can be ready if one "pops up". Or, was this a "one off"?

Now, you see, we know who to call!

[Vid]

I am of the opinion that it is very questionable and would not accept it as Allach, it looks like a Japanese art deco piece. Maybe it was, and was presented to the Japanese for some reason?

A skilled porcelain repair man could have enhanced a reletively obscure and inexpensive piece to make it a 'one off'. The SS Rider that Dennis sold has been so skillfully repaired one could not tell it had ever been damaged.
Mark

I take the stand that it is not Allach as we know it

Mark

It would now appear that Himmler's personal staff allowed this to happen, a Bohemia mark placed over the Allach mark?

The doctrine of the S.S. was strict and any deviations from Himmler's wish's were not treated lightly.
Mark

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

The placement of the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark is obscene.

Mark

Kris,

I will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.


Mark

I see your knee's are weakening again over on GDC and that you are back to it being either very early or its fake?

Cant seem to make up your mind can you? You have thrown every argument possible at this piece and the piece is winning and you know it as it shows in your words.

Stubborn man you are, why don't you just fold your hand. Your beat the piece says your in denial. And which of the comments above are the ones you are firm on?.

I'm am glad you are firm in your opinion, I just cant tell what your opinion is and obviously either can you.

[mpaul]

Levels of collecting...

Kris,

I play in a whole different league than you are capable of, always have and always will.

I don't have the check you promised me two weeks ago. Is it "in the mail"?

Mark

[Vid]

Kris,

I play in a whole different league than you are capable of, always have and always will.

I don't have the check you promised me two weeks ago. Is it "in the mail"?

Mark

Is that the League of Extraordinary Indecisive Gentlemen?

I know your better than me Mark, don't worry.

The shipping check has not been sent but I will get it out tomorrow or Tuesday, I only got the piece on Tuesday and to be truthful was down with a cold the rest of the week. I had no idea we would be at war over this piece, so lets not make it out to be something its not. Especially since it was offered not requested.

Have you called Dennis Porell since he received the new photos yesterday? You may want to call him for an opinion on this vase as he is obviously concerned that the two principle's of this argument are both clients. Call him up.

Best,

Kris

[mpaul]

A calm voice from a fair Moderator.

Tony,

There will probably never be a real reson known for this pieces existance and you have handled this thread in a very professional manner. I compliment you on your ability to stay above the fray and be non judgemental.

Your point of view is well taken...all fakes are not done for purely financial reasons. The other reasons are most interesting and educational for all.

I am now going to go buy more broken and repaired items from Dennis Porell, from whom all except one rider and two candle holders came from. I'm almost certain that he would really appreciate the comments Kris Lindblom stated.

Thanks for the courtesy in leaving this tread open....gotta go get my glue and fix the two candle holders (broken, I must assume) I just got last week from our own resident expert....Kris Lindblom.

Save me some time here Krissy...are they broke?

Mark

[Vid]

Tony,

I am now going to go buy more broken and repaired items from Dennis Porell, from whom all except one rider and two candle holders came from. I'm almost certain that he would really appreciate the comments Kris Lindblom stated.

Mark

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ocusZbsQQfviZ1

There is a checkbook sucker born every minute, by the way where is Fredricks swagger stick?

Great buy!! but your probably 2500.00 over market, but what the hell its a great deal and your Mark Paul!!

Great job my friend.


Maybe we can keep this on the topic of the vase for a bit ayyy Mark? There is more info coming that should be interesting. I am sure you would like to see this thread pulled, but I don't.