a lot of Allach looking for opinions

[TonyS]

Kris,

You make quite a good argument and it's interesting to read your theory. Good job.

However, it's still a lot of "could be" and "maybe" speculation.

It's no different than what you hear the SS tunic and SS headgear collectors say: if it needs a big explanation to account for the variations from a textbook item - don't buy it.

And that's a hell of a big explanation...........

[Vid]

Kris,

You make quite a good argument and it's interesting to read your theory. Good job.

However, it's still a lot of "could be" and "maybe" speculation.

It's no different than what you hear the SS tunic and SS headgear collectors say: if it needs a big explanation to account for the variations from a textbook item - don't buy it.

And that's a hell of a big explanation...........

Tony,

Your entitled to your opinion and I certainly hold no ill will, but the gentlemen sent me an e-mail that essentially stated that my post was a long winded opinion and theory with no basis of fact. It may have been long, but it took all the issues that could be called into play to substantiate my reasoning and it is not without fact. I took offense to that and now I am dug in and the show may have not even started. There is much more I have not put into play.

I am glad to have had the opportunity to show those pieces of which are facts.

This however is not headgear, nor is it a dagger and to be frank there is very little in the way of reference as in other facets of the hobby.

There is a clear difference when one looks at artistic expression as opposed to any other facet of the hobby, this is art and the standards are different as are the circumstances in this case as to any prior case. It is not a lot of explanation really if you look at it, Its an Allach mold with an Allach mark. If not for the Bohemia mark there would be no question at all. Its not that complicated an equation as some would make it out to be, but that is opinion.

Best,

Kris

[mpaul]

Appointed world authority speaks

Kris,

Since you have appointed yourself the singular authority on Allach and all it's nuances, I guess we will have to submit to your personal opinion or else?.

S.S. Grupenfueher Oswald Pohl's wife Elenore was a qualified designer who gave artictic advice but no pieces are attributed to her in any manner.

Since there are only two sources of printed information on Allach, of course they would be studied as basic learning tools by any collector at any level of compentence.

It is your personal opinion that this piece is real is unsubstantied by any fact at all.

Constructive and informative opinions are usually preferred over unsubstantiated theory that you choose to call facts. That boat won't float.

[Vid]

Kris,

Since you have appointed yourself the singular authority on Allach and all it's nuances, I guess we will have to submit to your personal opinion or else?.

S.S. Grupenfueher Oswald Pohl's wife Elenore was a qualified designer who gave artictic advice but no pieces are attributed to her in any manner.

Since there are only two sources of printed information on Allach, of course they would be studied as basic learning tools by any collector at any level of compentence.

It is your personal opinion that this piece is real is unsubstantied by any fact at all.

Constructive and informative opinions are usually preferred over unsubstantiated theory that you choose to call facts. That boat won't float.

Mark,

I disagree, the facts are very clear to me, I think for some reason you chose to be stubborn and your not looking at the piece as much as the argument.

I have not appointed myself the singular authority by any means, I simply saw the piece and new it was right, this has been the way I have operated in many cases, I made a case for it and for some reason your brain refuses to accept the piece as what it is as opposed to what is written or not written.

Many people use these 2 sources of literature for the hobby and that is fine, but what you need to understand is, this is not a hobby to me as much as it is a passion, I have studied tons of pieces, I have my hands on period documents, I have searched high and low for answers to many questions and to be truthful I did not even use a reference for my post although some of its content is has obvious sources.

If you cant see the facts I cant help you, I typed them clear as day for you. Read them and take any one of them and ask me why it is a fact and I will tell you. I have spent many years with this and it may seem that I am trying to be a singular authority, but it appears to me that your trying to undermine me with a frivolous argument.

I took all the pertinent information I had and applied it to this piece and made a call, thats all I did. If I am wrong? who do you think is going to pay for it? Me!!.

You come in and say, "Well its either real early or fake" your out either way if the thing go's down in flames. My ass is on the line as I chose to make the stand on it based on my experience. If you choose to hold that against me that is your choice but I consider your comments made via e-mail and publicly to be personally insulting.

Now if you want to fight this out further lets just do it, I need someone to post pictures and cut and paste text and it will no doubt help fakers in their quest, but I will fight for this piece as I firmly believe it is absolutely correct.

At this point were still friends as far as I am concerned. But if you want to argue this piece, you better have a real good argument and be ready to back it up because I am ready for battle, and its my name on the line here not your's. I can assure you that you will not be pleased with the result as I play to win. And when done? I will be done making any comments in regards to Allach.

Kind Regards,

Kris

[John1919]

This piece has been discussed heavily on other forums and the biggest problem with it the continued statement of "fact" made about it.

The only fact is that it resembles the style of Allach vase model 503. There were 4 different styles in the that shape according to the published information regarding Allach.

I am of the opinion that it is very questionable and would not accept it as Allach, it looks like a Japanese art deco piece. Maybe it was, and was presented to the Japanese for some reason?

To immediately accept it as the Holy Grail is detrimental to those in the hobby who study and collect it.

A lot more convincing is needed here before we start to see other pieces marked in this manner...going against the tide of known marks and accepted because one is stating "facts" that may well not be.

A skilled porcelain repair man could have enhanced a reletively obscure and inexpensive piece to make it a 'one off'. The SS Rider that Dennis sold has been so skillfully repaired one could not tell it had ever been damaged.

My advice is to think long and hard about it before coming to a factual conclusion. The presentation of a theory is all we have here so far.

Mark

Mark,

Here are some additional FACTS concerning this piece:

1) No visible sign of any alteration of the marks under magnification.
2) Piece was purchased from a porcelain dealer in Germany who does NOT normally deal in Allach, Third Reich memorabilia or any military items. This vase was the only piece of Allach he had and the only Third Reich item he had.
3) Item was NOT sold as a rare item, only a "plain Jane" Allach vase. Price paid was 300 Euros. 300 Euros doesn't go very far in Germany for professional restoration/alteration. At the 300 Euro price point, decoration and/or alteration would not be price effective as it would not even probably pay for a mint condition Allach #503 on which to begin an alteration. Profit as a motivation for the creation of this piece is thus non-existent.
4) Passmore's Allach book is also not a 'Bible" or "Holy Grail". It is only a collection of the best information that was available at the time of printing. It's already 15 years old and additional information will continue to advance the our understanding of Allach items in the future. To accept a 15 year old reference (or any other reference) as the last word without room for revision or evolution is unreasonable. Read an one of your old college textbooks in the subject of your choosing and you will see what I mean.
5) I am a scientist by training and have been trained to be skeptical in testing any new ideas, hypotheses, etc. Over the course of 30+ year career in conducting highly detailed critical analyses, it becomes pretty easy to figure out when all the facts are consistent and lead to a reliable conclusion and when they don't. In the case of this piece, I can detect no inconsistencies (either in fact or motivation) that cause me to question the authenticity of this piece. In fact, all the available information available to me (low purchase price, transformation of an "Allach" piece into a "Bohemia" piece, utilization of a non-typical Allach decoration, etc.) seems totally counter-intutitive as to what would one would expect if profit were a motivation for its creation. From a forensic perspective it would be straightforward to validate it's authenticity using modern analytical techniques. It's just not necessary and not work risking damage to the piece.

6) The piece is not for sale and probably never will be. That being so, it removes profit as a motivation for my sharing this information with the forum.

Best regards,

John

[mpaul]

possible understanding

Let's agree to disagree on this one. To each his own. I take the stand that it is not Allach as we know it and as I initially stated in one of my earliest posts that it was "either a very, very early piece or a total fake". What was wrong with that assessment?

You want it to be a "very, very early piece". So?

Mark

[Vid]

Let's agree to disagree on this one. To each his own. I take the stand that it is not Allach as we know it and as I initially stated in one of my earliest posts that it was "either a very, very early piece or a total fake". What was wrong with that assessment?

You want it to be a "very, very early piece". So?

Mark

Is this for me or the owner? Because the fact is I can prove that to be an Allach mark, it has not been duplicated in that manner. The Bohemia mark may take a couple days as I don't have one on file. There was nothing wrong with the assessment, I just looked at it differently and stuck my neck out because I was excited by the premise and shot my mouth off, I knew what I was saying but needed the right photo.

But now I can prove it.

Unfortunately it will open the door to undesirables.

[Vid]

Mark,

Here are some additional FACTS concerning this piece:

John

John,

If you could re-shoot your mark with a flash straight on, and then maybe in open light so that I can see the lines of the mark better behind the Bohemia over stamp. Try and bring the top off the octagon level so that the 503 is visible and both vertical as best you can.

Mark,

You need to look at that picture I sent you really really close against the one posted and account for the over stamp and lighting and maybe we can avoid this.

Best,

Kris

[John1919]

John,

If you could re-shoot your mark with a flash straight on, and then maybe in open light so that I can see the lines of the mark better behind the Bohemia over stamp. Try and bring the top off the octagon level so that the 503 is visible and both vertical as best you can.

Best,

Kris

Good morning Gentlemen,

I sent Kris some additional photos I took this morning as I don't have posting privileges. I'm sure Kris will post them!

Best regards,

John

[John1919]

Good morning Gentlemen,

I sent Kris some additional photos I took this morning as I don't have posting privileges. I'm sure Kris will post them!

Best regards,

John

Gentlemen,

My reexamination of the photos indicates that the green BOHEMIA mark was placed over the green Allach mark. Thus the process to produce this vase seems to be:

1) Production of an Allach #503 vase (including the “503" impressed mark and the raised Allach octagon)
2) Application of the usual period Allach green markings inside the Allach octagon
3) Application of the usual period "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG marking over the usual period Allach markings inside the Allach octagon
4) Application of glaze over both the Allach and "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG markings

Kris has stated the order correctly in his analyses but it took me a while to get it right!

I apologize for any inconvenience. Apparently, exicitement and advanced age are not a good combination

Please send me a PM with tyour email address if you wish a high resolution copies of the markings.

Best regards,

John

[Vid]

Gentlemen,

It is without a doubt an original Allach marking and shows every tell-tale sign of an original Allach mark that can be found.

I will need a person to host 2 photo's and we can put this to rest on the Allach marking anyway. That should satisfy the nay sayers. If not we will go further.

Best,

Kris

[Anders S]

Posting pics for Kris

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[Anders S]

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[Anders S]

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[Anders S]

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