a lot of Allach looking for opinions

[Vid]

Woooooooo hooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you so much Anders!!!!!!!

I don't know where to even start, but anyone who questions those marks as anything but original Allach is either blind or in denial of fact. That is a 100% original Allach mark in all its glory and without a doubt substantiates the piece as an original Allach piece, the Bohemia mark is under glaze and sits exactly as it should. The bubbling in the glaze covers both marks in splendid fashion its just beautiful!

#42 AND # 43 show how the flash bought out all the flaws indicative of allach markings, #44 is huge! but shows the spectacular and amazing mark under the glaze as well as the Bohemia floating in the glaze right above it, #47 is great and shows the bubbling is just pefect and coincides beautifully with known originals but rarely captured.

I just love it!

#45 is an original mark from model #502 and I am going to stop here for now, because those pictures are so god dam good!! that only a fool would try and deny that mark.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anders S]

Last pic

[Vid]

Last pic

Outstanding!!! Thank you very much sir!!

[mpaul]

Stretching a little too far I think

It would now appear that Himmler's personal staff allowed this to happen, a Bohemia mark placed over the Allach mark?

The doctrine of the S.S. was strict and any deviations from Himmler's wish's were not treated lightly. This was one of his personal pet projects and I am now having a harder time beleiving that the S.S. , who oversaw the Allach works and all of it's products, would allow any mark to be placed over the Allach mark. The reverse would be more believable...the Allach mark over the Bohemia mark.

This is a curious piece, reasonably acquired and without precedence. Any proclamation of it being released with 'thier' Allach mark stamped over by another marking by the S.S. is very hard to even fathom. Why would they allow this? Think they had a good day or were just fooling around and made it up for a friend? Allach was supposed to be the ultimate cultural legacy of the S.S. and Himmler's personal staff oversaw everything. That legacy was supposed to last 1,000 years.

Sometimes one can wish and want a piece to be real too much...only time will tell and not a week or a few month's in my opinion. It may be real, "may" being the operative word here.

No one is out a lot of money here (less than $450.00) so it's not a real big issue to try to solve in a thread. A rush to any judgement is very premature.

I remain very cautious but that is irrelevant as it's only one piece, not for sale, and a very good piece to study. It needs no stamp of approval. It is what it is. Maybe with the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark it was a rejected or flawed piece and someone got to fool around with it? Too may Pohl's around for that I would think. I think that the S.S. in that time period was a very tough bunch of fellows and would kill for less than this.

I don't think we are going to solve this quickly and all I can do is exchange reasonable thoughts and theories with fellow forum members without any malice and only to learn in a constructive and non threatening manner. Hopefully, some reason why this piece is double marked will surface over time. My position is that it must have been close to heresy for the S.S. to let it out of thier works with an old maker mark over thier own new mark. Maybe I have read too many books about the S.S. but they were certainly not prone to allow deviations and were very, very strict in thier beliefs and procedures.

Gimme a few minutes to get into my bunker before the grenades are thrown at me! I know they are coming.....

Mark

[Vid]

It would now appear that Himmler's personal staff allowed this to happen, a Bohemia mark placed over the Allach mark?

The doctrine of the S.S. was strict and any deviations from Himmler's wish's were not treated lightly. This was one of his personal pet projects and I am now having a harder time beleiving that the S.S. , who oversaw the Allach works and all of it's products, would allow any mark to be placed over the Allach mark. The reverse would be more believable...the Allach mark over the Bohemia mark.

This is a curious piece, reasonably acquired and without precedence. Any proclamation of it being released with 'thier' Allach mark stamped over by another marking by the S.S. is very hard to even fathom. Why would they allow this? Think they had a good day or were just fooling around and made it up for a friend? Allach was supposed to be the ultimate cultural legacy of the S.S. and Himmler's personal staff oversaw everything. That legacy was supposed to last 1,000 years.

Sometimes one can wish and want a piece to be real too much...only time will tell and not a week or a few month's in my opinion. It may be real, "may" being the operative word here.

No one is out a lot of money here (less than $450.00) so it's not a real big issue to try to solve in a thread. A rush to any judgement is very premature.

I remain very cautious but that is irrelevant as it's only one piece, not for sale, and a very good piece to study. It needs no stamp of approval. It is what it is. Maybe with the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark it was a rejected or flawed piece and someone got to fool around with it? Too may Pohl's around for that I would think. I think that the S.S. in that time period was a very tough bunch of fellows and would kill for less than this.

I don't think we are going to solve this quickly and all I can do is exchange reasonable thoughts and theories with fellow forum members without any malice and only to learn in a constructive and non threatening manner. Hopefully, some reason why this piece is double marked will surface over time. My position is that it must have been close to heresy for the S.S. to let it out of thier works with an old maker mark over thier own new mark. Maybe I have read too many books about the S.S. but they were certainly not prone to allow deviations and were very, very strict in thier beliefs and procedures.

Gimme a few minutes to get into my bunker before the grenades are thrown at me! I know they are coming.....

Mark

Pulling pin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that your argument? Seems like your softening your argument now that you see the obvious.

It is already solved, that is an original Allach mark and it is an original Bohemia mark. Both marks are clearly correct and clearly under the glaze which exhibits all the known flaws attributed to many Allach marks.

If you compare the sigrunes piece by piece on the washed out flash pictures you will see the balance of any outward traits of the Allach mark that were previously obscurred. Once you dicsect the mark piece by piece you find it is nearly identical to the #502 mark posted for comparison.

If one were to believe that this mark was applied and tinkered with at a later time, then that person would have to believe that this was at one time an original Allach #503 that was molded and fired, and then taken and either adorned in its hardened state or was built over, elaborately designed and then marked with a Pre-War Bohemia mark and then re-fired to falsify a 300.00 vase.

Is that your contention sir?

The cherry blossoms are not an issue as Art-Deco was an international phenominon and it was not out of the question that an artist use that platform for whatever reason. In other words the cherry blossoms are not relevant to the piece.

You have been arguing with me and against logic, you have accused me of slinging opinion and theory, I have been arguing the piece and what I see, there is where your problem lies.

You fail to see your hand in front of your face, the piece is original and bears an original mark for both companies and the correct model # there were not 4 versions, there were 2 and that would make this piece very, very special.

I may not be able to say why, but my argument has always been based on factual information, you have done your best to undermine that.

Your argument is flawed, it is not worthy of note as it does not apply to the piece which is an original Allach specimen and there are plenty of deviants in the hobby the defy rules and regulations of the SS. It is without question real.

The question of why is not relevant and can only be assessed in the form of speculation, which is what I did. But you still need to look at the piece and your refusing to do so out of stubborniss (sic).

Your wrong and you need to admit it.

Kris

[mpaul]

Last post on this subject from me

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

This quest of yours borders on the sophomoric so I will humor you and your point of view. Your arguments are all purely speculative and threatening to those who do not subscribe to your theories.

I am not softening....the placement of the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark is obscene, in my opinion. See how easy it is to use the word opinion?

I will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.

These "car crash" type's of posting bring a lot of traffic to see the bodies and perhaps also to set yourself up as an expert in the field. Not so my young friend. Your rantings remind me of one Prosper Keating, before his fall from grace on most forums. Venom does not sell well in the exchange of theory. If you kept it as theory....there would be little contention. Once you set yourself up to proclaim a never before seen piece to be "the real deal' and not to be questioned by anyone as you were convinced from pictures of it's provanance...that was a road you should not have traveled.

Exchanges of differing points of view are healthy for any hobby. Exchanges with you are filled with threats, rantings of 'fact's' and more threats. You are not going to "get" me, so don't threaten me.

As Richard Pryor stated "You don't get to be old being a fool, there are a lot of young wise men dead as hell".

Mark

[Vid]

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

This quest of yours borders on the sophomoric so I will humor you and your point of view. Your arguments are all purely speculative and threatening to those who do not subscribe to your theories.

I am not softening....the placement of the Bohemia mark over the Allach mark is obscene, in my opinion. See how easy it is to use the word opinion?

I will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.

These "car crash" type's of posting bring a lot of traffic to see the bodies and perhaps also to set yourself up as an expert in the field. Not so my young friend. Your rantings remind me of one Prosper Keating, before his fall from grace on most forums. Venom does not sell well in the exchange of theory. If you kept it as theory....there would be little contention. Once you set yourself up to proclaim a never before seen piece to be "the real deal' and not to be questioned by anyone as you were convinced from pictures of it's provanance...that was a road you should not have traveled.

Exchanges of differing points of view are healthy for any hobby. Exchanges with you are filled with threats, rantings of 'fact's' and more threats. You are not going to "get" me, so don't threaten me.

As Richard Pryor stated "You don't get to be old being a fool, there are a lot of young wise men dead as hell".

Mark

Whatever,

And as I stated in a prior post, once the dust settles from this thread I will no longer comment or participate in these topics and such. I want no such throne, but I wish not to deal with such thick skulls either. You can be the exalted ruler of Allach if you like with your Passmore book and Allach catalog. Thats all you need right?.

Have a good day sir!

Kris Lindblom

[John1919]

It would now appear that Himmler's personal staff allowed this to happen, a Bohemia mark placed over the Allach mark?

The doctrine of the S.S. was strict and any deviations from Himmler's wish's were not treated lightly. This was one of his personal pet projects and I am now having a harder time beleiving that the S.S. , who oversaw the Allach works and all of it's products, would allow any mark to be placed over the Allach mark. The reverse would be more believable...the Allach mark over the Bohemia mark.

Mark

Mark,

I think it is important to keep in perspective that the SS and and numerous other NSDAP organizations and officials were not only idealists but pragmatic politicians as well. For example, how "Aryan" were Germay's major allies? Did the SS apply the same idealistic recruting standards at the end of the war and in occupied territories as it did in pre-war Germany? Was the non-agression pact with Russia consistent with the Third Reich's idealistic objectives or an act of political expediency? Was the SS and NSDAP willing to compromise when itwas politically expedient to do so ? I think the answers are self-evident.

In my mind the most probable scenerio regarding the history of this vase is that a "plain Jane" #503 vase was manufactured by Allach, transfered to Bohemia Ceramic Works where the design was created and a Bohemia mark was applied.

Please keep in mind that during this time frame the Czechoslovakian delagates to the 1939 World Fair in New York were refusing to recognize the annexation of Czechoslovakia by Germany and were plodding ahead to have a "free" Czech exhibit (including an exhibition of "Bohemia" tableware, see http://www.collectorscircle.com/bohe...porcelain.htm). Could the Germans have seen the creation of a joint Allach/Bohemia polcelain collection as a politically correct jesture to entice the loyayality of Bohemia under SS authority and position the "free" Czechs in the international community as a malcontent minority unrepresentative of the Czech majoity? Who knows, it's all speculation. It is clear however that in many instances Germany, in general, and the SS, in particular, were not always dogmatic in their idealism and compromised as required to meet their more important end objectives.

Mark, in summary, I don't think we can read too much into whether the Allach mark was applied over the Bohemia stamp or vice-versa. Practically speaking, it just made more sense for the pottery to be completed at Allach (including the application of the Allach makings) and then pass it off to Bohemia for the cut glass decoration (for which the Bohemiams were internationally recognized). To do otherwise (for example, to insist that the finished decorated vase be returned to Allach for final marking over the Bohemia marking) would have compromised efficiency, a trait which the SS and Germanywere also not known. When would it make sense for Allach to mark the product-after Allach's pottery contribution was completed or after Bohemia's decoration was completed?

In my mind, realizing the Bohemia mark was applied over the Allach mark made the cooperative effort beween Allach and Bohemia to create this vase a lot more plausible as it would be consistent with the expected manufacturing process flow.

Best regards,

John

P.S. I hope we can all be friends after this-this has been a great diisussion! I wish you could examine this vase in person, I think that would convince you. The makings are clean, crisp, professional and up to Allach's standards. Additionally, in my humble opinion, the decoration far surpasses any thing Allach applied to their vases. The decoration is actually cut into (that is, not applied on top of) the surface. I can't imagine what level of skill (and nerves) was necessary to create this design under the strict supervision of an observing SS administrator.

[mpaul]

intellegent exchange

Hello John,

Your opinion is well presented and I would truly like to see that vase in person, perhaps at the SOS?

I am sure we will all remain good friends at the end of the day. A healthy exchange always teach's a lot. This thread drew a huge amount of viewers, who may not contribute anything to it but certainly like to see a good exchange of theory and information and file it away in thier own data banks.

For the record, I think the vase is very well done from what I can see in the pictures and the fact that the floral design is incised into the vase is most intriguing.

If it wasn't for the double markings I would not have a problem. I think that vase is in a class by itself until we know more and this may be a very rare example. Of all the theories I have read, yours is the most cohesive and may have some credibility.

I feel certain that over some amount of time, other's may contribute thier bit's of knowledge and help us out here.
I have some more text's that I need to re-read on the political situation in the Chech area since I follow Heydrich and his turn around of the area in his position of Deputy Reichprotektor. You have put a good theory out and it is deserving of more study.

In any event, congratulations on a fine example. Kris and I are actually good friends and will remain so. Exchanges like all have read above are not personal and only reflect the passion we both have for the subject.

Kind Regards,

Mark

[Vid]

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

These "car crash" type's of posting bring a lot of traffic to see the bodies.Mark

Mark,

The question why? is no so much important as the piece which speaks for itself.

The fact of the matter is this mark has not been duplicated and never has been, it is very distinct and was applied in a specific manner, and I defy anyone to come forth with a marking such as this on a fake. Not only that it is on this piece which is not the norm.

I do not need to study the art of restoration and have seen professional repairs, but not a counterfeit Allach mark that will fly any where near as high as this piece, and if it were so we would see a lot more. It has not been done.

These posts often resemble car wrecks and people will like to see the bodies and the aftermath, but when this is over you will be the one lying on the tarmac and you will have to wait for me in hell, keep the drinks cold my friend.

Kick that 3 headed dog for me and tell him I am coming for him next.

Best,

Kris

[Vid]

Kris,

I will not participate in this debate any further. My position is clearly stated and I remain firm in my comments. You can believe what you wish, but all are not obligated in any way to take your arguments seriously.

Once you set yourself up to proclaim a never before seen piece to be "the real deal' and not to be questioned by anyone as you were convinced from pictures of it's provanance...that was a road you should not have traveled.

Mark

Mark,

I have always chosen the path less traveled as it is the most interesting road to travel, youth is not the issue here, the issue is the vase.

And the truth is you deny it, yet is speaks. It may not speak your language but it is very clear to me. It is dissapointed in your opinion and feels you have treated it unfairly to judge its character without listening. That is its message to you.

But you cant listen as it wont talk to you, you have defied it and have refused to look at the obvious, when you accept it or open your mind maybe it will speak to you as well.

Unlike many things in many hobbies, Art speaks the loudest and yet sometimes it will whisper and you need to listen to what it says, or you miss some of the greatest conversations you can have.

Open your ears Mark!

[mpaul]

From "Full Metal Jacket", a quote

Kris,

Remember this line...

"Easy Leonard....go easy man"

....the deal is over and the scene is cleaned up. Let's do it another day....

Let it rest my friend...

Mark

[Vid]

Kris,

Remember this line...

"Easy Leonard....go easy man"

....the deal is over and the scene is cleaned up. Let's do it another day....

Let it rest my friend...

Mark

“The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.”

I am easy, just charging my flashlight so don't stray too far. I promise this is not over.

[Vid]

Kris,

If you think that those marks cannot be duplicated...you need to study the art of restoration. Was the S.S. rider repairs detectible? Be truthful here.

Mark

Allach Markings, Process of Application and Fakes

In the course of the last 20 years there has been an increase in interest in Allach porcelain that has bought out many new fakes in the marketplace, these fakes although crude and simple seem to pass themselves off to the unwitting collector through various venues. The internet has opened the door to many in the hobby and has caused explosive growth where supply simply cannot keep up with demand.

The sole resource's for the collector at large has been a 40 year old reference and a copy of the 1938/1939 Catalog reprint. Slim pickings to say the least and with the increasing interest Allach will no doubt fall prey to fakers in the future in a more bold manner. Before typing this and to this day only one fake Allach piece has been noted to have been manufactured with a true Allach mold. The mold was used by at least two separate porcelain manufacturers after the Allach demise at wars end.

This piece was not designed to be a fake as the model # was not the catalog # attributed to the coinciding piece for the firm of Allach, it was produced for retail sale under their own entity. The first piece which is believed to be Eschenbach and bore the Allach octagon, this piece was purchased by Mark Paul in Louisville in 2006 and upon inspection after its purchase was found to have hand painted runes colored black within the octagon. At this time not having owned the piece a call was placed to Dennis Porell to corroborate the model # the piece should have. It was at this point the model # was found inaccurate as was the quality and weight. This is the same Mark Paul that challenges me here today. But now he is an expert and I am looking for a crown.

The second rearing stallion was auctioned on Ebay with the octagon and no runes and bore a 3rd model # and was marked multiple times with what I remember to be Nymphenburg proofs. No other Allach piece to my knowledge has been observed with the octagon with an express intent to defraud or with no intent to defraud that I can recall.

The most common fakes are found in the dinnerware arena including cups, saucers, mugs, steins, regimental plates, etc etc. None of these pieces bear nor did they ever bear a model #. This makes these piece a prime target for Allach fakers and they permeate Ebay and various auction sites all over the web. Some bear obvious and some not so obvious clues to their dubious nature. A recent fake which bears striking similarity to the pieces on the beginning of this thread was accepted as good by two or three individuals before it called out by member Tony S.

Never to my knowledge has a true Allach mold been utilized to intentionally manufacture and defraud a collector, and quite franky the porcelain is of such high quality they would certainly have their work cut out for them if they tried. There are 5 Maker marks listed in Passmore's reference dated back to the 70's there are probably an additional three that are not pictured one of which includes the very early "Baroque" style marking that is rarely found and pertain to very early pieces, probably the first 40 or so produced, this includes item #31 which has been examined to date and found to have this marking. It was most likely manufactured in 1936.

Most of the fakes in todays market do not bear any credible Allach marking and if they come even close the piece itself gives the game away.

There were many marks, but I am going to concentrate here on two. The green marking which is found with both the word Allach and without and the impressed marking which is found with the word Allach and without. These are the two main markings to be found in the market place today.

The application of these marks has as much to do with how a piece should be judged as the mark itself, if not, more so. The fakes look like some laser guided new technology that is exceptionally clean and neat and bears no resemblance to the real McCoy.

So how were these marks applied, and how can you tell the difference? so as not to found yourself out of pocket and scrambling to get your money back.

If you look at the piece that has caused all the hoopla on this thread you will find an unquestionable Allach mark, this is not an opinion. It is real and it has never to my knowledge been copied to any degree of credibility. The marking for these piece's are stamped, most likely with a hard rubber or possibly wood tool, since they are marked prior to glazing the surfaces of the piece are uneven and porous, so when they are stamped the ink can seep into the crevices and run off the sides leaving white freckles and rough sides and uneven edges that can be found on close examination, once the item is glazed the heat creates little bubbles that can only be seen with a high resolution camera or glass.

It also explains why some pieces have a darker marker or a lighter mark, or for that matter any deviation whether it be askew within the octagon heavier in one area than the other due to applied pressure when making the mark. And naturally there must have been quite a few stamps. To duplicate one of these stamps today would be a grand challenge, and even if accomplished they would still have to deal with the porcelain.

The easy thing to note on this particular piece is that it has taken the tell tale freckled appearance although the marking is dark, when it is washed out with a flash you can see the rough edges of the sigrunes, you can also see the top of the first sigrune has an almost 180 degree curvature and the second is almost level, this is entirely consistent with an original mark and the posted for comparison as # 502. You will also notice the dark area's behind the center of the sigrunes (knees) this is also a unigue indicator when looking at these marks. The bottom of the sigrunes are a bit more difficult as they are obscured by the Bohemia mark. But when they are washed out you can see the legs on the first sigrune appear below the arm of the lion and although small it is at the right angle, the second sigrune leg is more predominant as its longer than the first, this in itself is an indicator but the angle of the second sigrune base also coincides with #502. There is a uniques taper from the top of the first rune to the center of the rune, this is entirely correct. Its not going to go one for all, but it is correct

There is just no question about it.

I am selling off and getting out, really hope everyone has been amused with my long winded opinions, and I want to thank Mark Paul for helping me make this decision, as now he can be the king of Allach and squawk up and down about Passmore and catalog reprints and mock me for my opinion's. Good for him but he was not mocking me when he was out of pocket 2000.00.

Its really sad there are several people who could actually back me up on this but they are silent, I don't understand that at all. And I get Mark Paul a fairly new collector who thinks my 20 years means nothing compared to his ill take it mentality and checkbook because I'm young....



Tony,

I am glad your amused as well, I might as well not bother to even defend myself.

Later and God bless us all!! everyone

[TonyS]

Allach Markings, Process of Application and Fakes

Kris is that meant to be a link?

Here is my theory.

In 1949 in an effort to help fund the Odessa, an artist at Bohemia found dozens of white Allach 503 vases in the back of an unused storeroom. He very much liked the cherry blossom pattern and decided to decorate one of the boring white pots. In the process he stamped over the very forbidden SS markings with an old Bohemia stamp. Upon showing his handywork to his superiors they were delighted until they saw the mess of markings on the bottom. How was this going to help fund the Odessa they asked the terrified artist? The American and Russian overlords were not stupid.

The artist was instantly banished to work out the rest of his days in the Bohemia basement and the incriminating pot was given to a 90 year old housefrau who cleaned toilets at the factory. She died a few months later and her grandchildren cleaning her house thought the vase was a horrible piece of crap that was given to the nearest junk store. So ended the Bohemia effort to fund Odessa.

Otto Skorzeny soon came to the rescue (as usual) when told of the failed scheme, by banging Eva Peron so well he got back the $800 million Bormann had skimmed from his Nazi cohorts. Lucky Otto got to screw a hot blonde babe and get paid millions while doing it.....