44 dot material, expert help please.

[Fritz]

Mr. Davis,
me personaly I do not wish to comment on items that were posted „anonymous“. This is because the real intentions for posting them remain as unknown to me as the anonymous „denoter“, I could only guess as for the intentions- but guessing is not knowing.
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I can nevertheless say three things.
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• IMO none of the patterns shown by Mr. Davis matches the Janke print or the piece of cloth, that IMO is also a janke print, to „100%“.

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• I have explained to Mr. Singer (not to you Mr. Davis nor to the anonymous denoter, that I must admit) earlier in this thread that variation do exsist, as they do with oak, platane etc., so that was never the question. The question is if the period variations match janke’s or other repro prints to „100%“. Or for those that don’t believe the cut off is a Janke piece, that they match the cut off piece to „100%“. In my eyes the Janke and the cut off match perfectly…..

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• As for my knowledge the Janke company was a manufutcurer of uniforms in ww2 germany or at least in some way related to such. They did not produce a period dot pattern but had most probably contacts to many companies that were producing fabrics etc. in ww2. Today it may be that most of the companies that they used to know moved over to china or the alike, used up their old stocks or simply ran out of business. So there are definatly changes in their pruduction process but generaly they know quite good how to do this and that right. Of course as they are a business they don’t do more than required to make the customer „happy“ and that is good for the collectors. For reenactors their uniforms are more than good.

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One might think on first -or even on second view - that the cut off piece matches period patterns but it doesn’t. At least IMO it only matches the Janke.


Cheers

Fritz

[Josef Hahne]

Kameraden,
Since I am the one with three Janke Dot HBT referance samples sitting here on my lap, I can say with 100% certainty that the Janke patern matches the subject cloth exactly. The other examples that Mr Davis posted do seem to match one another but do not match the Janke or the subject cloth exactly. They are close but they are not exact. I can point out the difference in them if needed via illustrations and arrows.

Also when I hold the Janke unform I up to a strong light source, I get the same VVVVVVVVV pattern as the foto posted earlier. This either means that the subject cloth is Janke or that Janke has the same weave as original HBT material.

Fritz is correct when he stated Janke was involved in war time production of germa uniforms but I believe it was only involved in the production of wool uniforms and not Dot pattern uniforms. Janke used to be able to boast he employed many of the same workers that used to turn out unifroms for the Wehrmacht. I doubt that is the case anymore.

Sepp

[TONY Q.W.]

This either means that the subject cloth is Janke or that Janke has the same weave as original HBT material.
Sepp

It also could mean (very possible IMO) that Janke used old stock (original HBT material printless ) for his post war creations.

[B. N. Singer]

Kameraden..
I can point out the difference in them if needed via illustrations and arrows.
Sepp

Thank you Sepp,

I would like that very much.

B. N. Singer

[Mike Davis]

Thank you Sepp,

I would like that very much.

B. N. Singer

Thanks to all for your comments gentlemen. I too would benefit from the illustrations.

[Josef Hahne]

Mike & B.N,
I will work on the illustrations and get them to the list but it may take a few days as I am working now. I do not believe I can illustrate the fotos using my computer. I may have to do it the old fashion way, print the fotos, make notations by hand then scan the fotos back into my computer. I will work to get it done because I feel it is important.

Sepp

[Mike Davis]

Mike & B.N,
I will work on the illustrations and get them to the list but it may take a few days as I am working now. I do not believe I can illustrate the fotos using my computer. I may have to do it the old fashion way, print the fotos, make notations by hand then scan the fotos back into my computer. I will work to get it done because I feel it is important.

Sepp

Thank you for the kind offer. We will look forward to seeing the results!

[MartyC]

ss

The "roller slip" I mentioned earlier in this thread, which genearlly always shows up on the originals, are obvious on the examples provided by Mike Davis.

Marty

[B. N. Singer]

The "roller slip" I mentioned earlier in this thread, which genearlly always shows up on the originals, are obvious on the examples provided by Mike Davis.

Marty

Then would it be safe to conclude that the examples posted by Mike Davis are original from seeing this "roller slip", despite the difference in some of the geometrics?

B. N. Singer

[MartyC]

Then would it be safe to conclude that the examples posted by Mike Davis are original from seeing this "roller slip", despite the difference in some of the geometrics?

B. N. Singer

Based on these photos alone, I would have to say that there is a high degree of probability that what Mike is showing are originals. As normal, one would have to examine these in hand to be certain, but from the photos they are promising.

Marty

[Josef Hahne]

Kameraden,
OK, here is my first attempt at illustrating with my computer. I hope I'm able to point out what I see.

This foto is the subject piece of cloth and Adler. I have circled the section that will be compared in the next two fotos. Please notice the tan dot nearest the arrow. Note the shape of it and the green sdt it is partially over. Also notice the space in between the tan dot and the lighter green dot beneath it.

[Josef Hahne]

Here is the foto of the Janke dot Tarnhemd that I submitted previously. I have turned the foto 180 degrees and zoomed in to bring it closer in size to the subject foto. The circled area is approximately the same area as the subject fabric. Please note the tan dot closest to the arrow, and the green dot it partially covers. Next please note the space between the tan dot and the green dot beneath it.

[Josef Hahne]

This foto is one of the samples Mike Davis provided in an earlier post. The circled area is approximately the same as the other two. Please note the tan dot closest to the arrow and green dot it partially covers. Notice there is no space separating the tan dot from the green dot beneath it. The shapes are also slightly different from the dots in the first two fotos.

In all the fabric sample fotos supplied by Mike Davis the patterns are all like this foto. There is no space between the tan and the green dot regardless of if the fabric is HBT or smooth cotton.

I realize that the patterns on all three fotos are very close but in close inspection, the subect sample is more consistant with the reproduction Janke pattern then the samples provided by Mike Davis.

Sepp

[Mike Davis]

Thank you for the analysis Mr Hahne! Have you noted additional differences in the subject patterns?

[Josef Hahne]

Mike,
Please call me Sepp. I think of everyone on this forum as my friend, until proven otherwise.

The subject sample is so small that it does not give me a lot of area to work with. I have three Janke referance pieces and it was difficult to locate that particular area without a pocket or a seam cutting it in half. Perhaps if the back side of the referance sample can be submitted (not a close up) I can compare the reverse side of the Janke to it.

In the fotos you submitted I noticed several "misses" in the printing that are very consitant with original dot camo but 100% absent in Janke and the other reproduction examples I have. I checked a sample made by GMAX and they too have a very similar pattern to the Janke but the dot sizes and shapes vary. In the GMAX, the tan dot and the green dot do touch except the shapes of the dots are very different.

Sepp