44 dot material, expert help please.

[Fritz]

Clearly, there seems to be a similar geometric pattern present in original material.

You could take any ss camouflage pattern.... dot, oak, BE, palm or platane that originates from the major producers for reenactment uinforms. They all look very nice and fool many novice collectors. This is why you have to look for each and every difference to known original patterns. The "rough appearance" of the patterns is the same. I would say that janke's dot is like 95% close to the period patterns and they definatly used a original pattern to make the rollers for the printing process.

I am talking about differences in an area of mm ( about 1/20 inch I think), very small. As Sepp said, if you look at the pattern from like 1 meter distance you will not be able to make it out, except if the area is visible where they missed one camo spot (dot) and I think it was Janke that missed one spot....


Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

I would like to know which part of the world did the piece come from: US or Europe? I recognize the material, there is a story behind it. Please answer my first question

As for my knowledge janke make their patterns in europe but it is widely distributed and many american vendors offer janke items as well.


Cheers

Fritz

[SMP]

I would like to know which part of the world did the piece come from: US or Europe? I recognize the material, there is a story behind it. Please answer my first question

Hi,
If your question refers to the cut-off piece seen at the begining of this thread - I bought it from a Dutch collector/dealer about 3 years ago. Does this answer your question ?

Regards,
Steve

[TONY Q.W.]

Yes I know, I should have known better and stood out of it all in the 1st place.

Fritz

No need to stay out of anything Fritz or consume our selfes with philosophical conversations such this. All I'm saying here is that we (the rest of us,excluding your self) don't look as stupid as we are appear to be.

[Fritz]

Edited....

Cheers

Fritz

[TONY Q.W.]

"we don't look as stupid as we are"........?????????

Ok, I am very fine with that statement!


Cheers

Fritz

...your comment was as mature as your all the advice in this thread, specially the 1/20 of an inch "if you know what I mean".....

[B. N. Singer]

...They all look very nice and fool many novice collectors. This is why you have to look for each and every difference to known original patterns. The "rough appearance" of the patterns is the same....
Fritz

OK, one must look at close specific details on the pattern (as one might infer, I am not well versed in camouflage SS or otherwise), but are there not desrenable variances in original materials that result from differences in the way the material "absorbs" the inks during the "silking process"?

B. N. Singer

[Felix]

Ok, lets not turn this thread into another pissing contest!

Lets focus on the original topic!

/"Felix" - N. Hansson

[Etienne B.]

Another nice thread ruined try listening for once .

compare notes,not insults. This hobby should mean fun,not

[Fritz]

...your comment was as mature as your all the advice in this thread, specially the 1/20 of an inch "if you know what I mean".....

Tony,
I will also explain this to you.....I said that because we have many US members and the metric system is not in use over there, at least not official (I think, correct me if I am wrong). So I thought it may be that some people don't know what a mm is....Just as some germans, poles, italians etc. don't know exactly what an inch is. I have no doubt that you naturally knew that as you obviously know a lot.....


Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

OK, one must look at close specific details on the pattern (as one might infer, I am not well versed in camouflage SS or otherwise), but are there not desrenable variances in original materials that result from differences in the way the material "absorbs" the inks during the "silking process"?

B. N. Singer

There are variations resulting from rollers and screenes that were copied by new manufacturers in order to increase the production volume. However, these were generaly very close and are known as a period variation. Nevertheless the base material would have very little impact on the pattern itself, if we disregard coloration etc. and focus on the geometry of the pattern.

Examples for that are the BE wool uniforms.

Cheers

Fritz

[Lorenz]

Dear Collectors,
Very interesting thread, If I can tell my Opinion I'm totally agree with Fritz, this piece wouldn't be something for me.
1-I dont like the dot pattern piece for himself, I dont like the print colors and the weaving of the Hbt, the colors and the weaving remember me a lot the M44 Dot camo fake tunics saw around...with fake aged..
The color that I dont like more in this piece is the green, in the original pattern (also more used) it have a color not so dull and sage, but is only a sensaction that I have after saw hundereds of Dot camo pattern pieces.
I can be wrong.
2-I dont like the Bevo tropical eagle on the dot pattern material, ALL bevo tropical eagles that I saw sewin on Original pieces are all post war applied, also unfortunately on one my Dot pattern tunic in mint condition....I really think that were NEVER used in the war time , except maybe in rarest exception..but sure not really documented.
3-I think also that the eagle wasnt original applied in this piece of camouflage pattern for the difference of aged between the hbt piece and the eagle, when one HBT cloth lose the color so much (expecially the green color) means that is very very used, this means that also the bevo eagle(almost mint) should be very very used, especially because the rayon is very delicate. You never saw an original SS Bevo eagle original sewin on a tunic in wool very used? sound very different.

In finally the Owner of this piece of Dot pattern tunic with SS bevo tropical eagle can ANSWER at some of this questions and doubts UNPICK a little part of this eagle (my advice where is the spot in green color) and see under the eagle if the dot colors are new...

This is only my personal Opinion about this very interesting thread.
I Hope that can help.

BY Lorenz

This piece wouldn't be something for me. I don't like the print of the camo pattern and I don't like the tropical eagle on it. The first pieces I have heard of with tropical insignia were "found" about 30 years back.

I am still waiting for a piece that "surely" is untouched and has a tropical eagle. IMO all dot pattern items with tropical eagles are altered pieces or right out fakes. I can't remember that Mike Beaver has mentioned any tropical eagles on pieces other than tropical uniforms.

On "dot" items I personally like:
- no eagles
- RZM eagles
- and in fewer cases grey BeVo eagles, these were for some reason not so often used for dot tunics...so the majority is the RZM style or no eagle at all on the later pieces IMO.

Still, I am no dot pattern expert, so you might wait for opinions of such. But as you asked for opinions I thought that even I could go for it.


Cheers

Fritz

[B. N. Singer]

Dear Collectors,
Very interesting thread, I dont like the print colors...The color that I dont like more in this piece is the green, in the original pattern (also more used) it have a color not so dull and sage, but is only a sensaction that I have after saw hundereds of Dot camo pattern pieces.

Are you referring to the light (grass) green or the "olive" green. I also thought the light green seemed "off" but it was difficult to tell for certain from the picture.

B. N. Singer

[TONY Q.W.]

Dear Collectors,
Very interesting thread, If I can tell my Opinion I'm totally agree with Fritz, this piece wouldn't be something for me.
1-I dont like the dot pattern piece for himself, I dont like the print colors and the weaving of the Hbt, the colors and the weaving remember me a lot the M44 Dot camo fake tunics saw around...with fake aged..
The color that I dont like more in this piece is the green, in the original pattern (also more used) it have a color not so dull and sage, but is only a sensaction that I have after saw hundereds of Dot camo pattern pieces.
I can be wrong.
2-I dont like the Bevo tropical eagle on the dot pattern material, ALL bevo tropical eagles that I saw sewin on Original pieces are all post war applied, also unfortunately on one my Dot pattern tunic in mint condition....I really think that were NEVER used in the war time , except maybe in rarest exception..but sure not really documented.
3-I think also that the eagle wasnt original applied in this piece of camouflage pattern for the difference of aged between the hbt piece and the eagle, when one HBT cloth lose the color so much (expecially the green color) means that is very very used, this means that also the bevo eagle(almost mint) should be very very used, especially because the rayon is very delicate. You never saw an original SS Bevo eagle original sewin on a tunic in wool very used? sound very different.

In finally the Owner of this piece of Dot pattern tunic with SS bevo tropical eagle can ANSWER at some of this questions and doubts UNPICK a little part of this eagle (my advice where is the spot in green color) and see under the eagle if the dot colors are new...

This is only my personal Opinion about this very interesting thread.
I Hope that can help.

BY Lorenz

Hi Lorenz,

I will politally disagree in that, from my experiance, I'lll say the HBT is original (old stock) printed post war. At least this is how it appears from the pics. If it was handled maybe my opinion would be different.

As for the rest that you mentioned I believe that you are right.

[Szadkowski1945]

Hbt

The integral triangle that the hbt weave forms cannot have all 3 equal sides. The base must be longer than the adjacent triangle sides, there should be 6 points forming on each triangle side. Here the arms are all equal, unless it is a very thin fabric.