44 dot material, expert help please.

[Fritz]

In "Waffen-SS Uniforms In Color Photographs" by Andrew Steven, pg 45 there is an orignal example of camo eagle used on an original camo tunic. Yes they were used during the war. It's rare, but used.

Dan

The book you are reffering to is full of repros. It was a usuable book back then but today it is not "state of the art".


Cheers


Fritz

[Fritz]

In addition, let's not forget that 'old stock material' (original HBT) was used post war. So we can have the correct (original) HBT material but with post war printing on it. Many post war dot pattern jackets exhibit this type of combo (right material/fake printing)

Yes, and so did fully printed material. Nevertheless, the piece we are talking about is IMO a 100% repro material with an attached (cheap to get )tropical eagle.


Cheers

Fritz

[LUCKYFEZ]

The book you are reffering to is full of repros. It was a usuable book back then but today it is "state of the art".


Cheers


Fritz

Sorry I would disagree. The owners of some of the blouses in the book, are friends of mine, and can assure that the tunics are correct. The eagle on the camo wrap in the book was original issue.
I was not commenting on the authentisity of the eagle shown at the begining of the thread, just simply that the usage of camo eagles on any dot pattern tunic was issued, and used during the war.

Dan

[Fritz]

Sorry I would disagree. The owners of some of the blouses in the book, are friends of mine, and can assure that the tunics are correct. The eagle on the camo wrap in the book was original issue.

Dan

Ok!


Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

Dan,
I see you have edited your post and meanwhile I have pulled Steven's "Book" out....The wrapper you are reffering to is IMO a reproduction with....yes...a added tropical eagle. The wrapper on the left is also a repro, so is the camo coverall, many helmet covers, smocks and the jumps smock on the last page. There is a lot of headgear that gives me worries as well...also some insignia...canvas G43 pouches etc..But I will not say that these are repros as this isn't my field of collecting.

Still there are many good items as well.

"Camo Eagles" exist (IMO) only for camo field caps....You can prove me wrong if you want or can naturally....But the term "camo sleeve eagle" is not valid for a tropical sleeve eagle.

I want to make very clear here that Andrew Steven did a good job in 1990 and that I can imagine what a tough challenge it is to write a book on this topic. Still, today I can't recommend his book to people that are interested in ss camo. Today Mike Beaver's books are what you want instead.


I respect your opinion and will not convince you of anything, I am just telling you my opinion.


Cheers

Fritz

[Felix]

Dont mean to insult anyone but from the photo on page 45 that LAH slip on cypher dont seem original to me. I also see many people refering to Angolias book on SS cloth insignia as a reference litterature but in my opinion the book is not good enough to serve this purpose. The photos are of too bad quality to really show the differences between originals and repros. The Angolia book is only a survey of the inventory of insignias used. It shows many examples and lists the types to be encountered. Still its a good book of examples ofcourse, but thats about it what it is.

And for sure, especially in the old books there are many mistakes and sometimes totally fakes shown just to illustrate what might have been possible to see during ww2, or simple out of poor knowledge. Bad reference books has also lead to misunderstandings because its written and documented and people believe everything to be original because of that. Not thouroughly researched reference books actually can do more harm to our hobby than if never published.

Ok, lets not part from the original topic.

/"Felix" - N. Hansson

[LUCKYFEZ]

Dan,
I see you have edited your post and meanwhile I have pulled Steven's "Book" out....The wrapper you are reffering to is IMO a reproduction with....yes...a added tropical eagle. The wrapper on the left is also a repro, so is the camo coverall, many helmet covers, smocks and the jumps smock on the last page. There is a lot of headgear that gives me worries as well...also some insignia...canvas G43 pouches etc..But I will not say that these are repros as this isn't my field of collecting.

Still there are many good items as well.

"Camo Eagles" exist (IMO) only for camo field caps....You can prove me wrong if you want or can naturally....But the term "camo sleeve eagle" is not valid for a tropical sleeve eagle.

I want to make very clear here that Andrew Steven did a good job in 1990 and that I can imagine what a tough challenge it is to write a book on this topic. Still, today I can't recommend his book to people that are interested in ss camo. Today Mike Beaver's books are what you want instead.


I respect your opinion and will not convince you of anything, I am just telling you my opinion.


Cheers

Fritz

Yes I did edit my post, however the point of the message is still the same. As for your opinion on the clothing etc in the book, well what can I tell you, its your opinion. Fact of the matter is that great care went into that book, and all the uniforms that were worn by the models.

Dan

[B. N. Singer]

Fritz,
I see it! It appears to be a Janke pattern. My foto is the same pattern as the one in the beginning of the thread, except upside down.
Sepp

Yes, but isn't this same basic geometric pattern present in original SS "pea pattern" camouflage?

B. N. Singer

[Josef Hahne]

BN,

From 5 meters away the patterns on a Janke and and original may look the same but compare them one to one and they are not. I don't believe any current mainstream reproduction will match up exactly. SM Wholsale uses only 4 colors. GMax print won't match up either and his fabric is a tighter weave of HBT. Lost Battalions talks about doing an exact reproduction of the pattern but as of yet, he has not. I can't say the dot from Asia matches up with original. The garments they are making have the dots facing horizontal not vertical!! Even if the individual shapes in the pattern match up, it will depend on the roller size used to print the material. The repeat of the patterns will not be the same if a different size roller is used from the original.

Sepp

[Fritz]

Yes, but isn't this same basic geometric pattern present in original SS "pea pattern" camouflage?

B. N. Singer

Yes, basicly...But that's the reason why you have to look at the details....Just as you have to with everything in this field of collecting. To look at the basics is just not good enough. Compair the exact form of the different spots (dots) and the exact outlines of the larger prints on this pattern with the Janke and you will see that they are the same. And that is not what you want to have, a period dot pattern looks very different. If one is only willing to take a closer look then one will be able to see it.


I get the feeling (not from this particular thread but generaly) that many forum members are just not willing to go through a bit of work and simply compair the patterns....This would filter out a lot of the bad stuff. Even if you tell them and show them pictures that they only have to look at they still keep on "believing in the piece" and that tells me that they are obviously not taking the 30 seconds for a closer look......Fine, but then you shouldn't ask for advise.

Unfortunatly I must say that collecting ss camo sometimes involves some time and work. Sepp and I went trough it and we came to the conclusion that this wouldn't be a piece for us.

I for sure will invest less work in furture threads as I can't see a large will to listen to explainations.

I will of course be willing to try to help those that really look for advise, just send me a PM and I will see if I can be of help.


Well explained, Sepp...But is someone listening?

Cheers

Fritz

[TONY Q.W.]

Yes, basicly...But that's the reason why you have to look at the details....Just as you have to with everything in this field of collecting. To look at the basics is just not good enough. Compair the exact form of the different spots (dots) and the exact outlines of the larger prints on this pattern with the Janke and you will see that they are the same. And that is not what you want to have, a period dot pattern looks very different. If one is only willing to take a closer look then one will be able to see it.


I get the feeling (not from this particular thread but generaly) that many forum members are just not willing to go through a bit of work and simply compair the patterns....This would filter out a lot of the bad stuff. Even if you tell them and show them pictures that they only have to look at they still keep on "believing in the piece" and that tells me that they are obviously not taking the 30 seconds for a closer look......Fine, but then you shouldn't ask for advise.

Unfortunatly I must say that collecting ss camo sometimes involves some time and work. Sepp and I went trough it and we came to the conclusion that this wouldn't be a piece for us.

I for sure will invest less work in furture threads as I can't see a large will to listen to explainations.

I will of course be willing to try to help those that really look for advise, just send me a PM and I will see if I can be of help.


Well explained, Sepp...But is someone listening?

Cheers

Fritz

Fritz,

what's the sun glasses for??? You think that you tought us a lesson???

[B. N. Singer]

.....I get the feeling (not from this particular thread but generaly) that many forum members are just not willing to go through a bit of work and simply compair the patterns....This would filter out a lot of the bad stuff. Even if you tell them and show them pictures that they only have to look at they still keep on "believing in the piece" and that tells me that they are obviously not taking the 30 seconds for a closer look......Fine, but then you shouldn't ask for advise.

Unfortunatly I must say that collecting ss camo sometimes involves some time and work. Sepp and I went trough it and we came to the conclusion that this wouldn't be a piece for us.

I for sure will invest less work in furture threads as I can't see a large will to listen to explainations.

Fritz

I can see the striking comparison in the Janke cloth to the one posted in the thread.

My question concerned the comment, (which to me was misleading): "It appears to be a Janke pattern. My foto is the same pattern as the one in the beginning of the thread".



Clearly, there seems to be a similar geometric pattern present in original material.

If anyone found my query too much of a burden, then I offer my apologies.

B. N. Singer

[TONY Q.W.]

Clearly, there seems to be a similar geometric pattern present in original material.
B. N. Singer

I would also agree with the above observation.

[Szadkowski1945]

Hbt material

I would like to know which part of the world did the piece come from: US or Europe? I recognize the material, there is a story behind it. Please answer my first question

[Fritz]

Fritz,

what's the sun glasses for??? You think that you tought us a lesson???

Tony,
that means I am cool with everyone here, may they say what they want. And I know for sure that certain people no one could ever teach a lesson as they already know it all which I have seen here on the forum before for many times. They can enjoy their knowledge as knowing all is worth so much.

I only wonder how come that so many collectors that used to give good advise (and I am not including myself, as I know that this could perhaps be your next question) have left the forum for good. But obviously they aren't even needed as so many here always know the right answers to each and every field of militaria collecting.

Yes I know, I should have known better and stood out of it all in the 1st place.


Cheers

Fritz