My new DAK helmets

[90th Light]

Couple points to address:

* the helmets were not assembled to take to the MAX. They were assembled after the war by the Czhk government from remaining stock.

* The seller of these helmets bought them in bulk in the late 70's and brought them to the 1980 MAX show to sell to dealers. When he bought them from Czhek government he was told they were war surplus that was used by the Czhek soldiers/ police after the war, and that they were assembled post war.

So the fact that there are photos of them in a werehouse would be fine. It means that when the photo was taken they were assembled and kept in storage for a long period before being liquidated decades later.

This in no way contradicts any "story": as the original "story" comes from the person who bought them in bulk directly from the Czhek government.

When he sold them across the US he simply relayed the facts as he had them, which were facts provided to him at the time of sale.

Simple as can be.

I dont have any idea of the name of the exporter, or importer as I was not at the MAX show at that time. The dealers I spoke to are well known and I dont feel that putting their name out there without consent is appropriate. You may believe what you choose as it makes no difference to me personally.

My understanding is that there was a single US buyer who sold bulk inventory to others, who then in turn sold them across the US. I bring up the MAX show because one of the dealers I spoke with was there, and was offered these helmets in mass, and was given the history first hand from the importer.

At the end of the day these helmets have never been accepted as wartime original because they are not. The older collectors of this hobby were not simply signing off on what they were told at that time. It was researched by many and that was the final determination. No different than today. Simply because the newer generation of collectors (myself included who were not collecting in 1980) are challenging the notion in hopes that these are SS helmets doesnt change the fact that they are not.

Ask yourself a very simple question....................................any retailer of German militaria from the mid 1960's to today would love to have a storage of SS helmets to sell. Why wouldnt AT THAT TIME in the 80's a seller not disclose that they were potentially SS and jack the price up. Of course they would if there was even the most slim possibility. We all can agree there. Also they were not even toted as tropical because it was plain as day then, as today that they are not wartime tropical.

Collectors today like to think that pre internet days were the days of the cave man and that info was "limited". THis could not be furthur from the truth. It was during this time that the majority of collecting knowledge was obtained, and the basis of what we use today. There were forgers then as today. Stop fooling yourselves, our generation of collector are not superior, nor are we anymore informed than those of the likes of Bill Shea, or Kelly Hicks. Remember its their books we read.

At the end of the day no matter what the logic in favor of these helmets comes to in the minds of those comfortable with them, the collecting community as a whole will never accept them as original wartime pieces of history.

I know this post sounds like I am laying out facts that "I know to be correct"/ they are not. I am simply relaying info from those who legit were there, and are very respected dealers and collectors in our hobby today. I believe them as they are the first who would love these helmets to be SS so they could buy them cheap, and sell em high! Plus I dont discount their first hand knowledge as they were there at that show, at that time/ date.

Combined with my own 20plus years of collecting and ownership of various torpical helmets, and a couple of these as well I just not buying it.

No Mr. Hicks has not replied yet.

With all due respect a lot of what you write here is nothing more than hearsay.

The reason that these alleged well known collectors do not want to be named is because they do not want to be associated with a sketchy theory or taken to task over something that lacks substance.

I was around in the 1960's, 70's, 80's, and can remember what relations with governments of the former Warsaw Pact were like. These were not sold by the CZ government of the time. It was highly illegal to sell this stuff to the West. One could even be taken to task for owning it. What happened was CZ government officials had to be bribed to get these out. That is how things work then and do even now. The other way was to smuggle them out via the under world. Today it is a lot easier to export/ import to the CZ.

There was definitely more than one USA dealer and also some from Europe. We even had a guy here in NZ who got a slice of the action and he picked up un-issued SS tropical tunics at the same time.

The challenge has been that since 1980, some have tried to carry out proper research into the 1980 post-war put together/ Egyptian/ Epoxy/ Collector Folklore stories. So far not one scrap of tangible evidence has emerged. Not one order form, no production notes, no invoices, no delivery documents, no address labels or photos of helmets like this being made or worn after WW2.

Then someone came up with a theory that because these helmets were a mustard brown colour and Egypt had some equipment which was a similar shade of colour thus may be they were intended to be sold to Egypt after WW2. Now we are being told that the CZ government just chose some random paint and sold them to the USA Max show some time after. What next the world boy scout movement for a Jamboree to match the tents.

Then someone else heard that and thought this unproven theory sounded logical. It grew from there. Someone told someone else who told someone else. The theory progressively made its way from one collector circle to another. Eventually it was being quoted in books and repeated at one show after another. No one knows exactly who started it but now it is being recited like it is a researched and proven truth.

However, it was based on nothing and only one possible theory floated at the time for which no proof of any form has ever emerged.

All that is known, these helmets were found in mass carefully stored in a warehouse in Czechoslovakia. No one knows who put them there, when or why.

The helmets were found, purchased cheap and then brought from what was called the "East" at the time to be sold in the "West" & USA.

Once they appeared on the market, the rumours began about who and what they had been made for. This has continued to this day. However the discovery of an SS distribution depot in the part of the CZ where they were found and other hoards of un-issued tropical clothing with SS & LW connection is a significant discovery which is tangible,

Chris

[francis006]

OK I just got the detailed pictures of the LW helmet in Dunkelgelb from Germany 5 minutes ago.
It is 100% a repaint, with Luft blue peaking through the surface!
That is crystal clear now, but still interesting as it is the same paint as the Czech ones ! (to me at least)

Hi Nick,
this Lw one isn't IMHO of the same color than the one that began the thread.
When the lot emerged , in fact I saw what were 2 different types . minty with NO sign of paint under and reissued like the one above with sometimes decals under !! (I also saw a DD police overpainted ).
these ones were all with a more greenish shade , different" texture" in hand and no "flat" paint .
In my memory , the refurbished types I had in hands had "usual" liners wool band , the minty tan had much light greenish color "felt" band
these helmets were sold by HSC , well known here who used magazines to sell his good and bad stuff so I wouldn't take his pics to prove anything
In the same years also emerged a lot of minty cut out helmets , pretty well made but fake for sure .The story was they were also found in Czechoslovakia. It would be interested to see what liners were used ....

Again just my humble opinion

[Mr. Hollywood]

With all due respect a lot of what you write here is nothing more than hearsay.

The reason that these alleged well known collectors do not want to be named is because they do not want to be associated with a sketchy theory or taken to task over something that lacks substance.

I was around in the 1960's, 70's, 80's, and can remember what relations with governments of the former Warsaw Pact were like. These were not sold by the CZ government of the time. It was highly illegal to sell this stuff to the West. One could even be taken to task for owning it. What happened was CZ government officials had to be bribed to get these out. That is how things work then and do even now. The other way was to smuggle them out via the under world. Today it is a lot easier to export/ import to the CZ.

There was definitely more than one USA dealer and also some from Europe. We even had a guy here in NZ who got a slice of the action and he picked up un-issued SS tropical tunics at the same time.

The challenge has been that since 1980, some have tried to carry out proper research into the 1980 post-war put together/ Egyptian/ Epoxy/ Collector Folklore stories. So far not one scrap of tangible evidence has emerged. Not one order form, no production notes, no invoices, no delivery documents, no address labels or photos of helmets like this being made or worn after WW2.

Then someone came up with a theory that because these helmets were a mustard brown colour and Egypt had some equipment which was a similar shade of colour thus may be they were intended to be sold to Egypt after WW2. Now we are being told that the CZ government just chose some random paint and sold them to the USA Max show some time after. What next the world boy scout movement for a Jamboree to match the tents.

Then someone else heard that and thought this unproven theory sounded logical. It grew from there. Someone told someone else who told someone else. The theory progressively made its way from one collector circle to another. Eventually it was being quoted in books and repeated at one show after another. No one knows exactly who started it but now it is being recited like it is a researched and proven truth.

However, it was based on nothing and only one possible theory floated at the time for which no proof of any form has ever emerged.

All that is known, these helmets were found in mass carefully stored in a warehouse in Czechoslovakia. No one knows who put them there, when or why.

The helmets were found, purchased cheap and then brought from what was called the "East" at the time to be sold in the "West" & USA.

Once they appeared on the market, the rumours began about who and what they had been made for. This has continued to this day. However the discovery of an SS distribution depot in the part of the CZ where they were found and other hoards of un-issued tropical clothing with SS & LW connection is a significant discovery which is tangible,

Chris

Chris,

The individuals I had conversations with did not request to not be named at all. I simply failed to get thier permission to post thier names. One is now on vacation and the other I sent an email this morning.

Trying to dissect my statements with personal bias is causing you to misinterpret my threads.

[Mr. Hollywood]

Nah.....IMO the dialog and misdirection has just got to be too much sorry.
Jerry

Well said.

I for one am done with commenting on this thread. No matter what is said, or shown NickG will keep posting a contradictory statement, or another "fact". Which ironicly is self invented.

At least anyone supporting the theory of post war repaints, and using historical data from collectors who were at these shows as dealers back in the day there is some sort of lineage to these helmets. Good or otherwise.

NickG your posts are wishful thinking, but I wish you thes best in your research.

[90th Light]

Chris,

The individuals I had conversations with did not request to not be named at all. I simply failed to get thier permission to post thier names. One is now on vacation and the other I sent an email this morning.

Trying to dissect my statements with personal bias is causing you to misinterpret my threads.

Well if the collectors/ dealers could contribute to this thread and share their experience/ facts/ evidence then that would be fantastic and what a forum is all about. However, I have seen this type of situation before and will count the chicken when it hatches.

I am not interrupting your threads with bias. I have already stated more than once on this thread, I remain open minded to all possibilities. However, it is the tangible facts that lean the scales with real weight.

To date I can not find much that is tangible to hang my hat on from those who say the helmets are post war. There is a lot of subjective opinion on the post war side with very little objective evidence to back it up.

Thus I continue to read all posting with interest and respect the way this thread is remaining a balanced debate attempting to investigate both sides of the argument in an orderly fashion,

Chris

p.s. what NickG has done is absolutely correct. He has formulated a qualitative theory as he sees it and now he is consistently trying to find data/ samples/ evidence to quantify it. Show me anyone qualified in proper research methods who would criticise or call that the wrong approach. Has he proved beyond doubt that the helmets are WW2 SS or LW tropical ? No he has not, but he has strengthened the possibility . Has he alerted the collecting community that the paint on these helmets could be a German paint used in WW2 on a range of items ? Yes, he is doing a very good job there.
ss

[Tim O'Keefe]

There was an depot near Prague that supplied tropical equipment to the ss. The ss troops stationed in Greece received & then returned their tropical kit from this depot, even up until 1944. This is confirmed by the ss veteran. Hundreds of helmets & tropenhelms, both without insignia, saharan's and webb gear were all found there, some in abundance post war. That has also been confirmed over the years by many different knowledgable collectors. Nick has done an outstanding job with photos showing the ss in Greece wearing stahlhelm's & tropenhelms again without insignia. Where are all those helmets from the ss soldat's in Greece ? Everything else went back to Prague ?

Pretty good case so far, compared to the so called Egyptian theory and its complete lack of any evidence at this point ?

By the way, before the internet there were many myths sprouted by collectors attempting to explain one thing or another. Since the internet many collectors myths have been proven false by numerous original examples appearing, not known to the small circuit(s) of collectors that had no excess to the World's collection.

[NickG]

Planting the seeds of doubt one post at a time

No in all seriousness what is so wrong about bring up these issues trying to connect the dots...that's all that we are trying to do...no mis-information here...to me the Egyptian theory is mis-information...seeds of doubt planted in the US. Many Czechs are much more open minded about these being legit according to my sources...
Who would you believe? and maybe these dots do connect even though they are circumstantial or not substantiated enough...at least we have a vet statement. This thread has been productive in my view...
It's like the Dachau depot (yes another depot) insignia...many doubters on these especially in the east...(no contact with US vet hoards) hoards appearing on the market unissued when vets passed on....100% German...like these helmet components. Proven without a doubt to be real since US vets brought these back. Prague was not liberated by the US.... The resistance and Russians took control...both not keen on war souvenirs....only the Czechoslovakian army and police took an interest in these supplies and used tropical kit post war...proven! But just not the helmets...but some ended up in black for fire service and emergency service..painted over tan. If post war production and there was no export order why weren't these painted black once stripped? Because only a small amount was used for civil duties post war...try finding images! I found just one...
The UK, Canada and US were not occupied so those Western troops were more interested in war momentous...but not in Prague...so no bring back helmets of this type as proof.
Also it's been established that these helmets went back into storage upon rotation by troops from OCCUPATION duty in Greece ...not battle fronts where damage and field wear happened...and from other quiet Sud front locations...like Corsica...helmets needed to look spiffy!
why is that too far fetched for many? War time Sudetenland made internal components on (many) of these helmets...more questions than answers...
Egypt export to me is not an answer...it's a convenient (lazy) excuse which was never proven nor really investigated...so why do these lids exists in the quantities found with war time specs to include the paint. Makes me wonder for sure so I am eager to read and share view points here even though I am not a hard core helmet guy...
Let's do a poll!!, to include country of origin ...Czech views?

[Dennis J]

I love this thread I sold those 2 helmets that my son had for $325 each.Before this thread I could not sell them unless I took $150 each.I still think they are post war and were sold as post war.

Happy Holidays
Dennis J

[PAB]

Also it's been established that these helmets went back into storage upon rotation by troops from OCCUPATION duty in Greece ..

Not to me its not! Imagine the hassle/logistics of shipping out new lids and then shipping back these??? tan one's? back Hardley. Why not just paint locally and re decal with a pocher even. Even troop rotation means your are presuming a fact when there is no evidence.

[NickG]

Not to me its not! Imagine the hassle/logistics of shipping out new lids and then shipping back these??? tan one's? back Hardley. Why not just paint locally and re decal with a pocher even. Even troop rotation means your are presuming a fact when there is no evidence.

Helmets came back with matching tropical kit WITH the soldier be turned in...Logistical night mare?
They traveled with this stuff...I take it you have not served in the military?
Note smocks and covers were also handled like that..not kept with the soldier...
handed in once transferred....but those remained at the front...not occupation gear...anyway in German it's called "sonderkleidung" in the Germam military... out of the ordinary kit...or
"special needs kit"...
So why did DAK troops receive kit to include pith helmets while in a barracks in Germany? I have pictures...others received these in field(replacement kit) ..but certainly not always while just arriving
in theatre!
I see no difference...and a vet statement backs this up. I am not making stuff up here...

[Luis22]

I got this one about 8 yrs ago... would this one be consider DAK??

[anmarlodz]

I got this one about 8 yrs ago... would this one be consider DAK??

It is not thread about dak items - it is about helmets which in late war period supposed to be refurbished and repainted.

Anywway; both of your items have typical post 43 shade of tan , so no, those are not dak items.

[Schwerpunkt]

p.s. what NickG has done is absolutely correct. He has formulated a qualitative theory as he sees it and now he is consistently trying to find data/ samples/ evidence to quantify it. Show me anyone qualified in proper research methods who would criticise or call that the wrong approach. Has he proved beyond doubt that the helmets are WW2 SS or LW tropical ? No he has not, but he has strengthened the possibility . Has he alerted the collecting community that the paint on these helmets could be a German paint used in WW2 on a range of items ? Yes, he is doing a very good job there.
ss

It is a good approach only thing is that more time is needed , if I were Nick I would first investigate this behind the scenes as the topic is starting to derail by off topic posts.
But take into account this will not have an end conclusion ever , just more evidence on the table for people to look at.
I'm sure a lot of collectors are open to new insights but that doesn't mean they agree immediately with new insights.
I never cared much about the Egyptian link , true or false , simply because I don't care for the paint on these helmets.
So it's not the Egyptian connection you need to disapprove but prove why the item itself is war time assembled and painted.

[Luis22]

It is not thread about dak items - it is about helmets which in late war period supposed to be refurbished and repainted.

Anywway; both of your items have typical post 43 shade of tan , so no, those are not dak items.

that was my question thanks,

[bubble]

True could be overpaints I concur! but still so many questions...
again from a Czech reference below repeated again here...
_______________________

Translated from a Czech book on the Czech army 1945 to 1955 - quotes on page 53 that that Czechs did very little export postwar and a majority of that was to Yugoslavia and it ended in 1948.

Plus the book states that in 1945 there was no manufacturing and the Czech republic had to import equipment for its army from the allies . Budgets were extremely tight up until 1948
and troops even wore combinations of civilian clothes with army clothes. In a state like that no one would have been bothered to refurbish German helmets in tan.
For what reason? Why spend money on refurbishing helmets? that they did not even need in the first place for their military (and export contract seems far-fetched now)
and Emergency services did not need brand-spanking new (refurbished) helmets and certainly not in the quantities that were made available...
Again the only logical explanation is for the German war effort...Yes weird texture...late war issue with ersatz paint. It is all explainable to me!
but again I agree speculative but some very good counter arguments have been posted here (for them not being post war assembled helmets). It is an interesting discussion!

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I'm dyeing these helmets after the war very skeptical.
In my opinion postwar assembly, cleaning, bleaching and dyeing these new helmets + subsequent transport f.e. to Africa or the Middle East worth more money, than if they fully made a new helmets.

Czechoslovakia was before the war, during the war and after the war between the countries with the largest and most developed steel industry in the world.

For Czechoslovakia should not export several thousand old renovated German steel helmets really virtually no economic effect. Profit would be very minimal (one helmet - 1-2 USD profit? ) .. Czechoslovakia at that time mainly trying to export new products and weapons - weapons after 1948 only to a politically friendly countries.

On the other hand - after the war in Czechoslovakia was a great shortage of everything and everything was highly save up (metal/steel also)..

Export of goods from Czechoslovakia was big after the war, but from Czechoslovakia is no exported only weapons! In military history books are placed mainly export of military weapons. And old helmet is not the weapon (!) ..

There were (40-50 years) many orders and signed contracts for export to many non-communist countries of the Third World (the Middle East (Izrael, Syria, Egypt,..), Asia, South America (Argentina, Brazilia, Bolivia, Ecuador..), Africa,.. ) .. but many of these stores then canceled on the grounds that these countries became politically incorrect or that they did not pay in advance for goods (= 70%!!).

I can imagine export these old helmets should be as free bonus to a greater export of arms (in 1950) f.e.) to a poor African country, which flirted with communism and had the potential to become the next future USSR satellite ..

Anyway, even at that time (40-60s) there were certainly a lot/many of stupid and senseless decisions and inefficient transactions on which Czechoslovakia underwent many money (the same like today:-)))