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**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by anmarlodz View Post

This the gasmask canister I was refering to in all my posts; the very late war canister painted in tan - seen few of them - very rare and hard to find.

I did see the photos, and I have had a few of these over the years. While the paint may be tan, it's not the same paint as these helmets. That was my contention.

There are some pretty glaring differences when observing these, or other tropical period pieces against these helmets in person.

Not trying to sway anyone. Again just my personal observations, I will leave it to other historians to interpret how they choose.

**90th Light** · 12-08-2014, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Maybe I missed it........how, when, and by whom was able to confirm that "RAL 7028" was used on these helmets?

I ask because the examples of comparisons being noted, I believe are not one in the same paint. Here is why:

When comparing in person one of these helmets to the various canisters and what not over the years I never found them to be the same. The paint color is different, the textures of the paints are different, the way the patina from years of exposure are different.

They are not one in the same, although on a PC they might appear so.

These are just my observations over the years. Not that I was directly comparing one to the other at the very moment. You get the idea. I have handled/ owned more than a dozen tropical helmets over the years, and various forms of tropical kit. Never found them to have any resemblance to these helmets.

Again just my personal observations because I wouldnt have the first clue where to get the paint analyzed. i am assuming since your speaking with very specific paint codes that you have documentation backing that these helmets were painted in some sort of period paint? When I see these helmets in person they don't look like any period paint I have seen from gas masks to tanks.

The shades of all German paints made during WW2 varied a bit from one batch to another. The passage of time and exposure to light can also make paint vary. Some paints lighten, while others darken

However, I understand what you are saying. The term "RAL 7028" has appeared out of this thread but it is relevant to the study of this.

The tan/ brown aspect of these helmets is different from many "RAL 7028" items which seem to be lighter sand shade than this. May be it is not even "RAL 7028" but it is very, very close. So close that it may as well be if they did not have every ingredients of that particular day when it was made that they had a week earlier. They had to use what they could get to keep production going. Also it could be a pressed ganged from another part of the Third Reich or an ally country of the Germans.

For a long time I considered it a different shade. But then I got directly from New Zealand veterans, two belt buckles both from different places in Italy and a Jerry petrol can taken from a Panther tank also in Italy. These items are a very, very close match. It was at that point, I became very suspicious that we are dealing with a WW2 paint on these CZ found helmets.

Also no two DAK/ Afrika sand helmets have ever matched exactly either unless they came from the same unit and were painted on the same day. However there are certain ranges within each shade of DAK sand colour that one comes to recognise the instant one sees it.

This sand/ tan/ brown/ on the CZ found is within such a range for "RAL 7028" but it nothing like what was used in Afrika by the DAK,

Chris

**GAMS1** · 12-08-2014, 08:12 AM

Don't forget the helmets came out brand new,most of them still wrapped in paper and didn't "see the light " before 1990 for most of them ?
The gas mask box is half rusted and saw a lot of action ?
Nick

**Wesley's Dad** · 12-08-2014, 09:23 AM

I am enjoying this discussion...

I sold this helmet off my website earlier this year. I sold it as has been discussed here, that is German parts, period unknown but mentioned the Egypt theory.

This helmet had a single layer of yellow/tan paint inside and out, either built new or 100% disassembled, stripped, and repainted. When? Who knows... therein is the debate we are having.

This helmet is unweathered Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 in my opinion. The same color that was standardized as the basic factory finish in spring of 1943 for new military vehicle production and may other metal fabrications.

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**Dennis J** · 12-08-2014, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Wesley's Dad View Post

I am enjoying this discussion...

I sold this helmet off my website earlier this year. I sold it as has been discussed here, that is German parts, period unknown but mentioned the Egypt theory.

This helmet had a single layer of yellow/tan paint inside and out, either built new or 100% disassembled, stripped, and repainted. When? Who knows... therein is the debate we are having.

This helmet is unweathered Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 in my opinion. The same color that was standardized as the basic factory finish in spring of 1943 for new military vehicle production and may other metal fabrications.

If you don't mind...what did it sell for?

Dennis J

**Wesley's Dad** · 12-08-2014, 10:35 AM

$325.00. So not much more than the sum of the parts.

**Dennis J** · 12-08-2014, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Wesley's Dad View Post

$325.00. So not much more than the sum of the parts.

Thanks .....my son has 2 and I just need an idea of a price.

Dennis J

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by GAMS1 View Post

Don't forget the helmets came out brand new,most of them still wrapped in paper and didn't "see the light " before 1990 for most of them ?
The gas mask box is half rusted and saw a lot of action ?
Nick

I certainly understand your point. I just dont agree with the logic after have owned many tropical helmets, and two of these helmets.

Also I will just say for the record............my observances are just that.

So when I had replied stating that the verisons of tropical gear I have had in my hands, and have seen from other collectors...........none of them matched the paint on these helmets. Late war or not.

I am not a novice collector, and there are others who are far more experienced than I that have maintained the same contention regardless of the "story" that has circulated with these helmets. I honestly dont know the "reason" these helmets were created, so I can only speculate as the original poster has done.

If they were SS that would be cool, but I think its as likely as proving that there is water on Mercury. Based on the physical evidence I dont see anything supporting them being wartime construction, let alone from an SS depot.

Sorry just my opinion. I wont furthur clutter the thread. I am curious to the opinions of others, and what developes.

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

So when I had replied stating that the verisons of tropical gear I have had in my hands, and have seen from other collectors...........none of them matched the paint on these helmets. Late war or not.

I am curious to the opinions of others, and what developes.

This thread has nothing to do with tropical gear...in varying shades (field applied on a unit level)....but erroneously titled as such. Don't compare! = late war ordnance farbe!
Happy to see you are open minded about a possibility of it being real war time. Ample examples have now been posted to make it no longer a tooth fairy tale!

We should really do a poll...
Who can set that up here?

______________________________________

Originally posted by anmarlodz View Post

As I wrote previously it very late war canister ( made and painted in 1945 ) . One of collector friend had found one of this here in Poland which was dated 1945 .I also had seen few other examples with same tan paint and with same features like the one above.

Again gear produced in this color surfacing from the "East"...Not fake, not a DAK wannabe...different time span. Late war 1944... Another very good clue!
It is very interesting that the gas mask canister thread immediately got the thumbs up as late war and rare, to be factory produced in this exact same farbe. No hesitation on that piece of
war time equipment being real. (not tainted with export order BS story) Now lets see some mess kits on this color!
Had these GrunGelb produced canisters (100% original parts) turned up by the 100's or 1000's, they would have probably also been written off as some 3rd world contract...

The Ordnance Tan Helmet Debate (from GermanHelmets.com) states the color is not the same...but fading, UV exposure, general aging, batch differences etc...could easily account for that as Chris hinted!
More here: So inconclusive on the origins of these...Not immediately written off as post war either!
__________________________________________________ ____________________
One of the more interesting debates among helmet collectors is one which centers on the discussion of “ordnance tan” colored German helmets. These helmets are different in almost all respects from the typical field-repainted or camouflaged German helmet of World War II.
The debate regarding these helmets centers on whether or not they were wartime produced, or if they are in reality surplus helmets repainted by Czechoslovakia in the late 1940’s or early 1950’s. While these “ordnance tan” helmets can be found in the usual M1935, M1940, and M1942 varieties, they are most often encountered in the M1940 and M1942 models. It has also been stated by some collectors that World War I model M1917 and M1918 helmets also exist in this tan colored paint. The configuration of these helmets is unique in several respects from other German helmets of World War II. These tan helmets feature a smooth finished paint inside and out and are fitted with mid- to late-war dated M1931 liner bands and chinstraps.
Not one found in original condition bears a dome stamp in the crown or decal insignia on the sides. The color of the paint finish has been described as “ordnance tan” as it is similar, yet not exactly identical, to German wartime paint used on field equipment and armored vehicles. In virtually every case, these helmets are found in unissued condition giving the impression that they were never used in combat. All of the parts, from liner rivets to chinstraps, are German manufactured wartime originals that have never been used.
Helmets of this type first began appearing on the collecting market in the 1980’s. Many gun and military shows featured these unissued helmets as “newly discovered” camouflage helmets strait from a foreign warehouse.
The premise was that they had been found in a long lost shipment of late-war factory produced camouflage helmets destined for the beleaguered troops of the Wehrmacht. The assumption has always been that these
helmets were intended for either Army or Luftwaffe troops fighting on the South-Eastern part of the Russian front in 1944-45 (Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia). Other collectors claimed that these helmets were intended for German troops fighting in Italy in 1944, while some also suggested that they were manufactured for men fighting in Rommel’s Afrika Korps in 1943. Others speculated that they were German produced helmets intended for Axis allies such as Romania. Hundreds of these “ordnance tan” helmets flooded the market to the point that some well known military auction houses even featured these helmets for direct sale at a price around $250 each. Because hundreds of these helmets simply appeared overnight in the militaria market place, some collectors began to wonder about their true origin. So many different hypotheses had been proposed that some collectors began to question the origin of these helmets.

Where these in fact late-war camouflaged helmets that never made it to their intended destination? Or were they part of some laborate reproduction scheme hatched somewhere in the US or Europe? Why had helmets of this kind never been encountered prior to the 1980’s? Could there really be warehouses filled with unissued World War II German equipment somewhere in Europe? Questions such as these gave way to increased debate about the origin of these helmets.The debate continues today more than 20 years since these helmets first appeared.

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**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 12:26 PM

Klaus posted this one last year...(all tan inside out M42) inside painted and with dome stamp even...a Bavarian fleamarket find...
Was it issued from that same depot? so used?
Of course it did not meet the norm that collectors were expecting to see on WW2 German (field applied sand camo ) so deemed suspicious...
lacks texture, lacks brush strokes, inside dome painted... to fishy for most....

Answer this question: what is not 100% German here?

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 12:28 PM

Interesting isn't it? 1000% good components...with intact dome stamp even... and the fact that these were brought back as souvenirs with vets...
(NZ troops who fought in Italy as Chris stated)

Attached Files

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 12:42 PM

Nick,

Thanks for the reply

I disagree on the intent of this thread was whether or not these helmets were period pieces, or post war constructed from original pieces. This naturally includes the paint.

My statements of "tropical gear" are exactly in tune with the spirt of this thread. I stated that I have owned several tropical helmets. I did not state that these were "field re-paints" or the like. My sole point was that I have yet to see any tropical helmet from any branch of service that has been painted in the way the helmet in question has been.

My comparison of tropical gear was a direct comparison to the varoius photos posted by other members illustrating other items....gas masks etc. My statements of comparison were just that. A comparison, as I have owned many late war pieces that were painted "tan" in color that do not match the paint of these helmets.

I do not subscribe that any proof has been established to prove that the helmets in quetion are anything other than a big question mark. Nothing has been proven regarding war time construction, nor that these helmets were period done.

The photos of the Waffen-SS members does not in anyway illlustrate what type of paint construction, nor shade/ texture of paint was used. To say that these photos prove that these helmets were worn, and that they came from an SS depot is far reaching at best.

I respect the opinions of every member of this board, but my experience, and the experience of others that have been disucsssing this thread on other forums is quite different.

All in all its a healthy debate but I dont see the smoking gun that proves these helmets are anything other than what they have been for the past 25 years.

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Nick,

All in all its a healthy debate but I dont see the smoking gun that proves these helmets are anything other than what they have been for the past 25 years.

OK that's fair, each his own opinion. The fact is (1) based on period photos some kind of uniformly tan colored helmets were issued in large quantities to the Polizei Division in Greece.
and (2) Dome stamps and owner names are in fact found on these (assuming its from the same lot and authentic...I say yes!)
Hard to answer but these Czech ones are considered depot queens and (always?) unissued, sitting for an export order... OK but it still makes me wonder...
or has this owner name been faked? Note again dome stamp and 1000% original parts... bluish pencil marking is also typical...ask WW2 German document collectors!

Makes me wonder... I remain open minded... Yes indeed a healthy debate!
but to those who are not so open to these being very possibly the real deal, they will play it safe and only accept these (field) over-paints ... (SS tan example in following link)
but do accept other gear (mess kits, canisters) freshly painted in this farbe?

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat67_x.txt

Attached Files

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-08-2014, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

OK that's fair, each his own opinion. The fact is (1) based on period photos some kind of uniformly tan colored helmets were issued in large quantities to the Polizei Division in Greece.
and (2) Dome stamps and owner names are in fact found on these (assuming its from the same lot and authentic...I say yes!)
Hard to answer but these Czech ones are considered depot queens and (always?) unissued, sitting for an export order... OK but it still makes me wonder...
or has this owner name been faked? Note again dome stamp and 1000% original parts... bluish pencil marking is also typical...ask WW2 German document collectors!

Makes me wonder... I remain open minded... Yes indeed a healthy debate!
but to those who are not so open to these being very possibly the real deal, they will play it safe and only accept these (field) over-paints ... (SS tan example in following link)

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat67_x.txt

I re-iterate:

"The photos of the Waffen-SS members does not in anyway illlustrate what type of paint construction, nor shade/ texture of paint was used. To say that these photos prove that these helmets were worn, and that they came from an SS depot is far reaching at best."

I simply mean that the photos dont show us shades, nor uniformity. They are over exposed, faded photos that really are not clearly support in either direction, or argument.

Also names are faked all the time, so that does not lend proof to the argument in my eyes.

Not sure what to make of that helmet. Some points that stick out to me right away....................shade is most certainly different as is the paint, has age, and the decal was once affixed on the oppiste standard side (not too unusual). Outside of the interior painted it bears little resemblance to the helmet of this subject.

I am not sure I accept that helmet as authentic. I have to admitt if real I its a first for me to see it painted inside like that for a tropical. I would like to see more info on this helmet, where it was obtained, and if ever part of a known collection. Could I be wrong.....yep. I would love a new discovery, or at least new to me. So time will tell, and I am anxious to see other comments on that helmet you linked Nick. Very interesting indeed

**NickG** · 12-08-2014, 01:41 PM

Another example of late Ordnance color...same shade ...not DAK... (image from Thalmannpionieren) Ordance/equipment box from Metallwarenfabrik Schmalkalden ("hhu")
No inside paint? or appears overpainted in rust proof color... Outside to me is a match to late war Dunkelgelb!

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