My new DAK helmets

[NickG]

So the paint is most likely genuine...so I guess the biggest hang up for most collectors is that the domes are painted...
Something that is to be expected with (period or later) reconditioned helmets...Camo treated for a certain theatre
and painted in accordance with those needs! Egypt or whatever ? or war time Südfront)


So a simple question: why do these exist (in the quantities found?)
and
Would a helmet refurbished in the 1950's been painted with a low grade war time formula "ersatz" paint, (primer) prone to rusting?
and
If made for an export order, why were they all found in the Protectorate? (reason or convenient excuse : the order got canceled...)
What order? For whom? With German RBNr parts?
The quantities found and the parts used to me still indicate a good chance of these being war time production for war time needs.
That explains the parts, that explains the amount found. (just like the G43 pouches, I see no difference)

Btw here is a LW one... Same paint... (turned up in France...)
It did not get the full treatment I guess??? I assume (for the nay sayers,) this one would pass muster all of a sudden?
Interesting isn't it?
or is this "Egyptian paint"??? Note LW dome! Again 1000% german parts, including the DunkelGelb RAL paint !

[NickG]

Here's the outside...
Note exact same GrunGelb paint used, same color, but it appears to be an overpaint on a more textured (LW) helmet.
This means perhaps not the from the Czech found refurbishment stocks...
or is it still ? or is it LW Feld Div?
Either way what it does prove is that the paint used is 100% accurate for war time painted German helmets.
Compare the skirt areas of the helmet on the inside!

[NickG]

Side by side comparison!
I guess one is a $200 helmet and the other a $1200 helmet? The DNA is 100% identical!

[90th Light]

Yes, but, .. I think Mr.Hollywood has some questions and nobody answers ..

The photo album pics don't tell anything, the magazine pics don't tell anything, the paint needs a long story to explain, it seems to be a primer, while all similar colored stuff is paint, who says they come from a ss depot etc..
Also, since when did Germany make factory camo helmets .., where's the gasmask canister in this color ?

Jos.

Hello Jos,

I am going to address Mr Hollywood's questions as soon as I get a chance to do so.

There is no long story to the paint. It is a WW2 type that the German had to use as a finishing coat because they ran out or could no longer make other types. They used what they had and this paint was 100% suitable for purpose and painting over if needed. What I am not going into is the chemical break down of the paint because my posts are too long at the best of times and who really needs that much detail ?

This paint was used on other things and this is very likely to be an SS factory expedient based on what they could get at the time plus it saves production time and does not need oven baking to cure. The SS are renowned for rougher quicker production that the Wehrmacht.

All period photos on this thread do show helmets like this being used and that is a valuable finding. However I agree, they are not beyond doubt proof that they are exactly these helmets. But, they do bear an uncanny resemblance that has never been raised/ discussed before on any forum about these helmets.

The other challenge is that there are veteran brought back examples from Italy but they were dismissed as nothing more than epoxy/ Egyptian CZ finds with made up stories. We now realise that a couple of collectors have picked up this type of helmet that came back from Italy directly from veterans. Sadly everyone just discounted them as rubbish at the time because these helmets were always considered post war,

Chris

[Schwerpunkt]

So the paint is most likely genuine...so I guess the biggest hang up for most collectors is that the domes are painted...
!

What exactly makes the paint genuine all of a sudden now Nick , because it looks the same as on the M40 ? Is that really the same paint ? How can you tell ?
90thlight's argument that they ran out of paint makes no sense as helmet production continued until the very end and there were plenty of stocks as well.

Why is the paint not textured as with all refurbished helmets from 1940 onwards ?
Soldiers even added texture in the form of woodchips and sand themselves.

If the Waffen SS needed a different camouflage why not make covers for their helmets they could dispense with in changing weather/theatres. Especially as you say they ran out of paint.

The mediterreanean theatre is not that big to warrant a single color camouflaged helmet. Where were they expected to fight ?
Just looking at it logically it doesn't add up even if the Egyptian link is flawed as well , it doesn't automatically make the other story believeable.

You need to bring much more weight to the table.

[NickG]

What exactly makes the paint genuine all of a sudden now Nick ,
Where were they expected to fight ?
.

All of a sudden now? Since I commenced participating in this thread my position from the start has been clear (shared with some other people) and it's that this RAL coded paint is very possibly genuine after all
and therefor applied during the war...(along with all the other original parts)

Where were they expected to fight? Really? Everywhere!
Ever heard of Churchill's speech in 1942 "the soft underbelly of the beast" .
I suggest to Google it!
A part of collecting is also learning about the history...what went on!

[90th Light]

s

90thlight's argument that they ran out of paint makes no sense as helmet production continued until the very end and there were plenty of stocks as well.

Why is the paint not textured as with all refurbished helmets from 1940 onwards ?
Soldiers even added texture in the form of woodchips and sand themselves.

If the Waffen SS needed a different camouflage why not make covers for their helmets they could dispense with in changing weather/theatres. Especially as you say they ran out of paint.

The mediterreanean theatre is not that big to warrant a single color

I did not say that they ran out of paint overall or completely.

What I said was that they ran out of "other types" of paint or could no longer make other types of paints. This was because of a range of reasons such as bombing, shortages or blockade.

In the second half of WW2 the Germans had to use waterborne paint similar to PVA because Linseed oil was in very short supply in Germany and it is documented that they were the first country in the world to have their railway rolling-stock painted with a waterborne finish from 1943 onwards

Panzer production also faced paint challenges due to shortages of key ingredients. Lower hull from the floor to the sponsons was painted grey up to 44 when suitable paint could no longer be obtained thus it became red oxide after that. Up to mid 1943 the inside of hatches were painted base coat yellow though after that there where times when the hatches where left in red oxide primer due to paint shortages.

Now if the German Railways and Panzers manufacturers are facing shortages and challenges with certain types of paint. Then were does that leave the makers or refurbishers of German steel helmets in the period 1943 to 1945 ???

Also did all M42 helmets in the period 1943 to 1945 have textured finish ? I certainly have at least two in my collection that do not. One is a smooth field grey and the other is a smooth dark green.

It would appear that the helmets found in the CZ in the 1980's could have been painted a smooth sand/ tan/ brown to match the olive shades of WW2 German tropical uniforms especially those worn by the SS. They are a logical colour match for a service uniform on one of the tropical fronts in the second half of WW2.

May be it is these waterborne paint similar to PVA developed by the Germans and used extensively from 1943 onwards that have been confused with post war epoxy,

Chris

[90th Light]

This is an interesting topic.....but I have a few questions that I have not seen addressed to this point directly.

1. I have yet to see in person, or in a respected publication any tropical helmet from any branch that is made up the same way as these helmets. One would think that at some point evidence of thier use would have surfaced by now?

2. Where is the published factual proof that these helmets actually came from an SS depot? Thus far from what I am reading it's "suspected" that they originated from and SS depot in Chk, which is no more credible than the Egyptian story line.

IMO.

To answer two of your questions

1. Some collectors are feeling that these sand/ tan/ helmets inside and out have come from veteran sources other than the CZ find. However, they were dismissed with out serious thought as being simply CZ-Egyptian-Epoxy helmets with a made up story. Some wish they had now paid more attention at the time to such finds.

2. It is my understanding that the hoard of sand/ tan/ brown helmets was found at Mlada Boleslav and this is where the SS depot Jung Bunzlau is also located. Durings the 1980's and since then other hoards of tropical SS uniforms, pith helmets, web belts, Italian camo parkas have also been found there. If I have this wrong then perhaps another member reading this could correct it.

Regards, Chris

[marco wol]

Yes, but, .. I think Mr.Hollywood has some questions and nobody answers ..

The photo album pics don't tell anything, the magazine pics don't tell anything, the paint needs a long story to explain, it seems to be a primer, while all similar colored stuff is paint, who says they come from a ss depot etc..
Also, since when did Germany make factory camo helmets .., where's the gasmask canister in this color ?

Jos.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=575208

[90th Light]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=575208

This is a brilliant link and adds a huge amount to this discussion.

Thank you for posting this

Chris

[trevor87bikes]

Interesting thread there

[Mr. Hollywood]

To answer two of your questions

1. Some collectors are feeling that these sand/ tan/ helmets inside and out have come from veteran sources other than the CZ find. However, they were dismissed with out serious thought as being simply CZ-Egyptian-Epoxy helmets with a made up story. Some wish they had now paid more attention at the time to such finds.

2. It is my understanding that the hoard of sand/ tan/ brown helmets was found at Mlada Boleslav and this is where the SS depot Jung Bunzlau is also located. Durings the 1980's and since then other hoards of tropical SS uniforms, pith helmets, web belts, Italian camo parkas have also been found there. If I have this wrong then perhaps another member reading this could correct it.

Regards, Chris

Chris,

Thank you for the reply.

I have collected german helmets for roughly 24 years (less than some here for sure) and in those years I have owned a couple of these helmets. Without the pretense from other collectors of these helmets being made for an export service, I personally never believed them to be WWII vintage.

There is something very off on the paint in person that I can't put my finger on, but it's enough that it stands out like a sore thumb on a table.

Compound that with the fact that even if these helmets were war time refurbs they are still not done in the same manner (textured paint) as accepted versions. Nor do they have the same quality of paint as a refurb helmet from the late end of the war. There shouldn't be such a huge despairity between the paint type.

It would seem that based on the argument of shortages, this "factory" or what not was the only one forced to use this paint? Not logical to me.

I just don't see much of a debate within this thread other than wishful thinking that these are SS helmets as opposed to any other branch. Would anyone be so passionate about these helmets if they were found in a Heer depot? I get it too........who wouldn't want a tropical SS helmet, but let's be realists too....they are rare as rare gets, but that doesn't make these helmets anymore convincing.

I would love a tropical camo SS helmet to go with my SS pith, but unless Doug is willing to let one go I doubt that day will come. Besides for that price you could buy a new Corvette!

Seriously though I really do believe that you can convince yourself of anything, and see comparisons everywhere to support a theory. At the end of the day the reason these have always been classified as post war is because they simply are. Had they been anything other, those dealers of the 80's and 90's would have been charging accordingly. Every SS expert like Kelly Hicks would have been on them faster than you could blink, and we would see a gazillion of these helmets goosed up with SS decals at every show. That I can assure you.

No one bothered faking or adding to them because they were too obvious post war frankenstein helmets. IMO.

[90th Light]

Chris,

Thank you for the reply.

I have collected german helmets for roughly 24 years (less than some here for sure) and in those years I have owned a couple of these helmets. Without the pretense from other collectors of these helmets being made for an export service, I personally never believed them to be WWII vintage.

There is something very off on the paint in person that I can't put my finger on, but it's enough that it stands out like a sore thumb on a table.

Compound that with the fact that even if these helmets were war time refurbs they are still not done in the same manner (textured paint) as accepted versions. Nor do they have the same quality of paint as a refurb helmet from the late end of the war. There shouldn't be such a huge despairity between the paint type.

It would seem that based on the argument of shortages, this "factory" or what not was the only one forced to use this paint? Not logical to me.

I just don't see much of a debate within this thread other than wishful thinking that these are SS helmets as opposed to any other branch. Would anyone be so passionate about these helmets if they were found in a Heer depot? I doubt it.

Look I would love a tropical camo SS helmet to go with my SS pith, but unless Doug is willing to let one go I doubt that day will come. Besides for that price you could buy a new Corvette (vruuuuuummmmmm)!

I understand where you are coming from,

and agree that the SS connection can not be proved beyond doubt.

However, what is coming out of this thread is the use of that sand/ tan/ brown "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" paint on a range of German equipment items in the second half of WW2. These items come from various manufacturers and thus show that this type of paint was used by more manufacturers than those located in just the CZ.

If nothing else comes out of this, there is certainly no case for the paint to be called a post war epoxy. It is a paint that was used by the Germans before May 1945.

As for the helmets, I remain open minded but the members who say WW2 are in the lead by quite a margin. Others who say they are not WW2 have produced nothing of substance so far but "unaccepting" words backed up by what ???

Chris

[Mr. Hollywood]

I understand where you are coming from,

and agree that the SS connection can not be proved beyond doubt.

However, what is coming out of this thread is the use of that sand/ tan/ brown "dunke lgelb RAL 7028" paint on a range of German equipment items in the second half of WW2. These items come from various manufacturers and thus show that this type of paint was used by more manufacturers than those located in just the CZ.

If nothing else comes out of this, there is certainly no case for the paint to be called a post war epoxy. It is a paint that was used by the Germans before May 1945.

As for the helmets, I remain open minded but the members who say WW2 are in the lead by quite a margin. Others who say they are not WW2 have produced nothing of substance so far but "unaccepting" words backed up by what ???

Chris

Maybe I missed it........how, when, and by whom was able to confirm that "RAL 7028" was used on these helmets?

I ask because the examples of comparisons being noted, I believe are not one in the same paint. Here is why:

When comparing in person one of these helmets to the various canisters and what not over the years I never found them to be the same. The paint color is different, the textures of the paints are different, the way the patina from years of exposure are different.

They are not one in the same, although on a PC they might appear so.

These are just my observations over the years. Not that I was directly comparing one to the other at the very moment. You get the idea. I have handled/ owned more than a dozen tropical helmets over the years, and various forms of tropical kit. Never found them to have any resemblance to these helmets.

Again just my personal observations because I wouldnt have the first clue where to get the paint analyzed. i am assuming since your speaking with very specific paint codes that you have documentation backing that these helmets were painted in some sort of period paint? When I see these helmets in person they don't look like any period paint I have seen from gas masks to tanks.

[anmarlodz]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=575208

This the gasmask canister I was refering to in all my posts; the very late war canister painted in tan - seen few of them - very rare and hard to find.