Questionable Schulterklappen, Tropenuniform on the E-Stand ?

[Tim O'Keefe]

The diagonal twill appearance you see on the overcoat strap is the result of insect (moth) larvae grazing on the woolen surface leaving the underlying weave exposed.

Thats what i thought might have happened based on the moth holes. Hard to tell from the blurry photo. Perhaps we will see better photos soon

Thanks for the info & confirmation as to the singles

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks again Chris

Agree with your assessment, especially that the fakers have not found the correct brown wool for the backing (with a few exceptions however). An overcoat would provide enough scraps for many straps and as they do not cost that much. Am surprised we have not seen more recent fakes. Just a few sets of straps would pay off the coat investment

The topic of non coat brown wool scraps used for strap backing as been discussed breifly before without any conclusion. M44 tunic brown wool for example etc. ?
This is an interesting study in itself. Looking forwards to more information.

The Recon straps you posted look interesting and you should post more photos

What sort of brown wool is that ?

cheers

Tim

Yes, I understand what you mean. German twill type wool with little nap remaining which could be the result of insects, or not much wool pile in the blend of cloth the wool is made from. It is hard to tell from the image because they are blurry in places but I think you are right.

What I am documenting examples of, is tropical straps with wool backings made from brown/ tan wool which is not from a German tropical greatcoat. Such tropical straps if original are not common but it did happen in a limited number of cases.

Of course one must be on guard against fakers who use odd-ball brown/tan wool because they can not get the correct tropical greatcoat wool.

I do not want to say more at this stage of which types of beyond doubt non- tropical brown/ tan wool I have found for obvious reasons,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

As I am more comfortable with Lw blue grey stuff, I didn't know that Heer tropical shoulder straps were such a mine field

Thanks for the comment. The DAK/tropical strap minefield is wide and deep just like Alamein. Fakes have been made almost from just after the war till the present day. Lately there are some really close attempts using original material and copying original comstruction. Still most are detectable in the detail.

Time to add a couple undisputable DAK straps to this thread for reference.
First set with hand sewn tresse & rosa piping, and next a rare single gold piped recon strap.

[90th Light]

Thanks again Chris

The Recon straps you posted look interesting and you should post more photos

What sort of brown wool is that ?

cheers

Tim

Still solving it Tim,

at this stage it is hard to say with any certainty exactly what type of ribbed brown wool is on the reverse side. There are several possibilities from within Germany, greater Reich, captured material and even beyond like Italy.

Have cracked what type of material the tongues are lined with

Chris

p.s. your panzer straps in post number 108 and your recon strap in post number 109. look to be made by the same maker. However the piping on the panzer straps based on that limited image look to be a rarer type of (earlier ?) Rayon piping that sometimes gets rejected but may be they are just worn at the folded end and starting to unravel ? Have a look at this thread to see what I mean, http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=piping .

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris

Took a look at the thread and the link within. Both of which are informative. Would say the rosa piping weave does match the white piping on the ss board. Should be mentioned that the one person who did not like the piping is anonymous in the thread...

Will send you an em on the Recon straps.

Thanks for the interesting link as i don't venture into the ss Forum, except for the birch/pink smock saga

cheers

Tim

[Tim O'Keefe]

Here is a comparison between the gold piped strap & the rosa piped straps. In hand it's apparent they are the same material which i thought to be an early rayon ?

[90th Light]

Here is a comparison between the gold piped strap & the rosa piped straps. In hand it's apparent they are the same material which i thought to be an early rayon ?

Interesting comparison Tim, reinforces my feeling that they are made by the same period tropical strap maker

Any chance that you can zoom in and take a close up of the piping ?

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Piping looks to be the same ?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Here are a couple more photos of the signals coat strap. As always all comments welcome ?

[90th Light]

Piping looks to be the same ?

Thanks Tim,

very helpful images

Chris

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

The senior NCO strap is very interesting, the wool on the reverse side, the tongue (and the top ?) is an unusual type not often seen.

If the top is this ribbed wool then there are two slightly different examples of this type of wool used in the manufacture of the senior NCO coat strap.

Is it political e.g. SA or captured French, Dutch, British or Italian (else where in the Reich ?)

The middle image of this post is another interesting pair in more ways than one, with the same sort of ribbed backing wool,

Chris

I am fairly certain that the twill weave wool is of french origin. And not only that, but I also believe that a lot of german tropical overcoats were made from captured french wool. The french wool came in colours ranging from chocolate brown to olive brown and featured a number of different weaves and "surface finishes", like smooth with exposed weave or very nappy like felt. Attached is a picture comparing >>this tropical overcoat<< from Virtual Grenadier to >>this french tunic<< from the Aiolfi auction house and it gets pretty obvious that they are made from the same fabric. Any kind of twill weave wool on a german uniform is very unusual and therefore I always assume that it has foreign origins. This also ties in with my previous theory of the french origin of the fabric for german tropical twill weave cotton uniforms, looks like they turned everything tropical they could find in france .

[90th Light]

I am fairly certain that the twill weave wool is of french origin. And not only that, but I also believe that a lot of german tropical overcoats were made from captured french wool. The french wool came in colours ranging from chocolate brown to olive brown and featured a number of different weaves and "surface finishes", like smooth with exposed weave or very nappy like felt. Attached is a picture comparing >>this tropical overcoat<< from Virtual Grenadier to >>this french tunic<< from the Aiolfi auction house and it gets pretty obvious that they are made from the same fabric. Any kind of twill weave wool on a german uniform is very unusual and therefore I always assume that it has foreign origins. This also ties in with my previous theory of the french origin of the fabric for german tropical twill weave cotton uniforms, looks like they turned everything tropical they could find in france .

Thank you for your research and informed experience in regard to German tropical uniforms plus tropical shoulder straps. You have answered the question I was asking and confirmed what I am observing as I handle known, original straps.


It has been my feeling for some time now that not all brown wool on the reverse side of some tropical shoulder straps showing the underlying diagonal twill, is of German manufacture or the result of insects eating the nap off the wool.

Again many thanks for your post and adding to this thread,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

I am fairly certain that the twill weave wool is of french origin. And not only that, but I also believe that a lot of german tropical overcoats were made from captured french wool. The french wool came in colours ranging from chocolate brown to olive brown and featured a number of different weaves and "surface finishes", like smooth with exposed weave or very nappy like felt. Attached is a picture comparing >>this tropical overcoat<< from Virtual Grenadier to >>this french tunic<< from the Aiolfi auction house and it gets pretty obvious that they are made from the same fabric. Any kind of twill weave wool on a german uniform is very unusual and therefore I always assume that it has foreign origins. This also ties in with my previous theory of the french origin of the fabric for german tropical twill weave cotton uniforms, looks like they turned everything tropical they could find in france .

Thanks for the added information. Agree many of the dark green jackets of the DAK were made originally from French stock.
As always, am greatful to you for sharing your information

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thank you for your research and informed experience in regard to German tropical uniforms plus tropical shoulder straps. You have answered the question I was asking and confirmed what I am observing as I handle known, original straps.


It has been my feeling for some time now that not all brown wool on the reverse side of some tropical shoulder straps showing the underlying diagonal twill, is of German manufacture or the result of insects eating the nap off the wool.

Again many thanks for your post and adding to this thread,

Chris

This has been enlightening. Knew French material was used for the tunics but did not realize that some of the wool used was also from France.

[Hptm. Fuhrmann]

My pleasure, gents.
The more I delve into french uniforms, the more I notice such things. Here is my newest discovery, check out these >>french cavalry breeches<<. I've seen some more of them and most were made in a smooth cotton corduroy fabric ranging from dark beige to olive green in colour. Looks strikingly like the fabric that most german tropical breeches were made of, scraps were also used as material for the tongues of shoulder straps, as can be seen in Tim's set of panzer straps in post #108. Cotton corduroy fabric has occasionally been seen before in german military use, mainly in some WW1 uniforms, but I think it is safe to assume that the WW2 tropical corduroy fabric too, was taken from french stocks and/or continued to be produced for the germans during occupation.

Best regards,
Andy