My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[TrondK]

Very interesting to follow this voyage. Great research to you all! I am very impressed

Maaaybe less dirt throwing on eachother next time. I must say it makes me tired to see innocent detective work turning into childish behaviour. We are supposed to be on the same team here guys.

If you dont have anything positive to say, then please be quiet.
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I have enjoyed this thread from the start, and this uniform can still have more surprices coming up. If you get the houseadress, then you get a name- then in theory you get the owner.

So that can maybe produce a photo of owner, maybe even in this exact jacket.

[NickG]

Thanks Trond!
Definitely a roller coaster ride of a thread!

Certainly an early Blitkrieg era unit...such Grenzwacht Regimenter...(most struck late 1939, absorbed in other units!)
But was their Waffenfarbe really light green ? Perhaps a security (sicherungs) unit farbe ?

or just regular white? Most Grenzwacht Regiments were absorbed in Heer Infantry Regiments and were even often referred to as
"Grenz Infanterie Regimenter"...(so white farbe?)

That's the only questionmark I have...for it to be for sure "GW Reg.108" belonging to Grenzschutz Abschnitt Kommando 13,
see document.
Anybody?

[naxos]

I agree that the Waffenfarbe should be white as the embroidered number "108" - not sure why the piping is green - perhaps the strap dye bled into the piping.

The embroidered cipher or number should be the same colour as the piping.

The number 108 on that strap looks white to me (or is it green) therefore the piping should be white as well

[NickG]

Another twist and turn!!
I asked for proof on the waffenfarbe but found it myself ...(thanks to another WAF posting from the past which I was able to dig up!)

Yeah what triggered this "color" conversation (initially behind the scenes PM's) is the fact that I found proof that Grenzwacht regiments actually had
WHITE farbe infantry branch color...NEVER green! So that proposition didn't work out...piping color was not dye contaminated!

See here: (a property stamp of a Grenzwacht unit waffenrock w/white piping).
They were often referred to as (static) Grenz Infanterie and most absorbed in regular Infantry regiments by 1940!
Here's is the proof: this Grenz Infantrie Waffenrock was posted by Ron a while back, note White edge piping:



So Border protection units never adopted light green farbe ...so that killed the idea that it's Grenzwacht Reg related insignia. UNLESS the strap has a white cypher and the piping is discolored...(re-colored) but that's not the case...The piping including the core is grass green and the cypher is NOT pure white!!
No doubt and the piping also matches the Litzen perfectly! So the offered Grenzwacht Regiment 108 proposition is a dead-end.

With that said I now feel its "Schutzen Reg 108" related insignia. The core of the piping is clearly green! The cypher simply faded to an off white color because of an unstable old dye used. A common occurrence!

So the thread is making another turn!

My changed opinion is that the straps are "Schutzen Reg. 108" related. (a predecessor of Pz.Gren.Reg 108, which was listed in the beginning of the thread)
Some members of the 14 Pz Div.Traditions Gruppe (108 Pz.Gren Reg reenactors from Germany) believe that this is the case also, (shown/shared info on their FB page), so its related to SR108 which started as JR108, ending as Pz.Gren108...

A MUCH more interesting unit I feel, which was formed at the end of the blitzkrieg in Aug.'40. It became fully mechanized and renamed Pz.Gren.Reg 108 in 1942, destroyed in Stalingrad and rebuilt again.
So we're back to that scenario (and there is a thread on WAF explaining the variations of green...Apfelgrün/Wiesengrün/Hellgrün all color mixes used...
ESPECIALLY ON TAILOR MADE STRAPS...
Schutzen/Fuselier units were supposed to have a less brighter shade of green, but the reality proves to be different...as with this tunic!

Since a couple of members of the TraditionsGruppe of this unit share my opinion I am happy with that explanation, a more exciting unit for sure based on the unit's combat history... (JR108 - SR 108 - PG 108 lineage)
(but GW108 is much rarer!)

[naxos]

Whatever Nick

[NickG]

Whatever Nick

Its not a matter of "whatever"...its a matter of 'whatever works" (fits best...),
this based on time frame and regulations....

The possible choices (and not):
-Inf.Reg.108: , raised 1942: not possible! old fashioned cyphers..
-Schutzen Reg 108: raised Aug.1940 : possible
-Pz.Gren.Reg 108: raised 1942 from SR 108: n/a : strap predates that time span!
-GW Reg 108: raised Aug. 1939: not possible... WHITE farbe was used (we were on the wrong track with that suggestion!)
-Volkssturm Bat 108: not possible late war unit! VS never used straps either...

Not that tough to narrow down the choices but I do very much appreciate your contributions and the GrenzWacht Regiment proposition,
an interesting and rare unit that lasted only 2 years! but the cypher is NOT pure white and the piping has NOT been changed in color,
the pictures answer those questions clearly. Thanks again.

[naxos]

but the cypher is NOT pure white and the piping has NOT been changed in color,
the pictures answer those questions clearly. Thanks again.

Really?

You are back on the wrong track -

We agree that all elements of this tunic are original but we both have no idea when it all came together.

You so desperately want this to be something it is probably not.

It looks like the straps had white Waffenfarbe at one time. This works for Grenz-Wacht-Rgt.108 in style and form.

See your conundrum? If you have to admit that the "108" is white (which it surely looks like) then this tunic with all of it's anomalies unravels and becomes (as it is) a questionable item.

That's why I say: "Whatever Nick"

[Hans Kristian]

If you dont have anything positive to say, then please be quiet.
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Now, this, I believe, is NOT the purpose of this forum....

Best regards,

Hans Kristian

[NickG]

Really?

You are back on the wrong track -
We agree that all elements of this tunic are original but we both have no idea when it all came together.

You so desperately want this to be something it is probably not.
It looks like the straps had white Waffenfarbe at one time. This works for Grenz-Wacht-Rgt.108 in style and form.

See your conundrum? If you have to admit that the "108" is white (which it surely looks like) then this tunic with all of it's anomalies unravels and becomes (as it is) a questionable item.

That's why I say: "Whatever Nick"

That's a great comparison Nexo...but it is hard to believe that a strap would be constructed like this with the numeral not matching the piping and here is the problem with the proposition: the piping is original green... to the core green...
more vibrant in the middle as the images show and it is and always has been green ...! Some fading but a more "hellgrün" on the inside, something that can not be faked with a felt marker!

So based on the regs it can NOT exist as presented unless something happened which is simply cypher fading...Ultraviolet rays can break down the colors and fade an object - it is a bleaching effect. When something bleaches it turns WHITE...
or in my case actually "straw yellow" (pale yellow)

Some objects may be more prone to fading, such as dyed textiles and dyed threads...
Here is a TRUE white cypher... comparing it to my straw yellow one...

[NickG]

Fading process explained in a color chart:
Green can go to straw yellow...and off white..These garments are 70+ years old!
Simple!
and true vibrant white can turn into an off white (yellowish) color even..., smoke exposure etc...
so such comparisons can be complicated...and the piping which matches the litzen has not been tinkered with...
meaning its just a color fastness issue commonly encountered in the dyes of textile materials, meaning resistance of the material's color to fading (or running)
Simple!

[naxos]

simply cypher fading...Ultraviolet rays can break down the colors and fade an object - it is a bleaching effect. When something bleaches it turns WHITE...

.

... its coming my way...From under the floorboards of a Czech house to California.

How would Ultraviolet rays get under the floorboards?

[NickG]

How would Ultraviolet rays get under the floorboards?

We don't know how long it was stashed away...but agreed, and in a closet there is also no UV exposure...Maybe it was still exposed (like in a Czech attic with windows).
Maybe it belonged to a Sudeten German (Volksdeutsche") who was mobilized after the Reich annexation and kept his dress uniform after the war...
( I still have my dress uniform from the Cold War period!) It could have faded even during the war while sitting somewhere...it is a dress uniform!
and as we know things changed, his Sudetenland became Czechoslovakia again and than you had other events like the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia and this stuff disappeared because of the communist situation so under the floorboards it went! Simple!
Already faded when it got stashed away in or around 1968. Also dyes fail not because of UV exposure, even temperature and humidity and simple aging can have an adverse effect
on the color fastness of dyes of fabrics yarns and threads...just deteriorates while it sits...

Many Volksdeutsche were expelled/displaced too, ....so it was stashed for that reason?
and left behind...to be found much later, but already exposed to the elements...Who really knows? but what we do know it was found like this. and I believe now SR108 related.

PS: This is why there are so many "Chaplain" visors out there....the "Medical" Blue schirmmutzen piping turned to purple over time...unstable dyes, a common occurrence...and
more prevalent with certain colors and less with others....It just depends...Discoloration of a 70 year old artifact should not automatically be viewed as a positive red flag.
Check the head gear section!

[naxos]

double post

[naxos]

We don't know how long it was stashed...
and left behind...to be found much later, but already exposed to the elements...Who really knows? ... and I believe now SR108 related.

Can't argue with faith. Good for you!

[Glenn McInnes]

As the flow chart implies, for years no one can ever convince you otherwise and you will just keep coming up with "answers" of why it is what you think it is.

Knowing from the first post in threads like this you will not change your position. The only reason I bother posting is that you influence how younger and less experienced collectors learn and think and, a good percentage of what to you say is unfounded in reality and is based on misinformation or speculation and it needs to be questioned.

No offense personally but some of the stuff you come up with and believe that you are told by sellers is off the charts as far as being probable, not just this thread but 95% of your uniform threads.

Usually the most likely answer is the truth not the opposite.

This deserves repeating!!

Lots of heavy wear and fading on a dress tunic most likely used for "dinner and movie night with the new girlfriend".





Glenn