Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[90th Light]

Thank's Chris and I agree one has to be very very careful not to dismiss original material as bad...I showed a couple tunics that were not bad and could stand on their own and had them dismissed as reworked fakes..its very frustrating...especially when judging from posted pictures and working with different levels of acceptance. I have also seen absolute unquestionable fresh out of 65 years of storage called fake or questionable..because the insignia matched those used by fakers..original but lumped into the whole because of mass abuse of loose ones. On here it's a gamble worldwide opinion based on different experiences..some only have experience with these fakes and never touched and original but become "experts" on the forum's after 10 years of handling many fakes they believe are real...some only mimic opinion they are the constant echo of whatever expert they love..I for one will say I do not believe in experts just years of experience and encounters with fake and real and who and when, it sharpens the skills.
I think we all need to find common ground and push these jackwagons out of business as dealers.

Thank you John,

I could not have summed it up better. You have hit the nail right on the head,

Chris

[90th Light]

Richard, I'm afraid you have some bad intelligence here. I have had the pleasure of viewing OSS' spectacular collection, yes, including superlative wraps (you know, of the type actually produced for and worn by German soldiers during the war), on a couple of occasions. And I must say it was a real pleasure to take in such an incredible assemblage consisting of items needing no apologies or leaps of faith. I just thought I'd correct the record since it seems Mr Modest has no desire to do so himself.

Hello Mike,

who do you think has handled more wraps, Peter von Lukacs or Ramsey (OSS) ?

who do you think has handle more directly in presence of the Germans who wore them or their families ?

I am not trying to be smart or billigerent, these are sincere questions because have not met an advanced collector yet, who did not come away impressed with Peter's knowledge/ archieve of what he has seen/ handled,

Chris

[djpool]

I think the poll pretty much captures the state of the hobby, one third think its good, one third think its a reproduction and a third say WTF over! Look at the thread on the second model wrap that was just posted. It was originally posted in 2007 and blessed. It came from a good source, Collectors Guild. I remember questioning an item from the Guild years ago and being told they were 100% reliable. Of course no dealer or collector is a 100% reliable source. Now the wrap is a fake. I feel bad for the collectors who cherished it as original for all this time and yes the dealer who I believe made an honest mistake.

The good thing is we'll continue to have these discussions in every collecting area helmets, soft caps, medals, photos, documents etc. Look at some of the rare document groupings that have been offered up lately. If not for the WAF a good friend and very experienced collector would have been taken to the cleaners!

If you believe in polls this wrap is a risky proposition. The worst that could happen to the doubters is having to deal with envy if somehow its proven beyond a doubt to be original.

For the believers you'll always be trying to justify it which might make it difficult for you or your family to sell. Theres certainly nothing wrong with taking a gamble as long as you know the risks. Many collectors have items they firmly believe are original but may not be so acceptable to the general collcting community. The only upside to taking this type of risk is the hope of one day proving the items originality and setting the record straight. It has happened on a number of occasions on the WAF? So if you happen to purchase this wrap I wish you luck. Jim

[Mike Davis]

Hello Mike,

who do you think has handled more wraps, Peter von Lukacs or Ramsey (OSS) ?

who do you think has handle more directly in presence of the Germans who wore them or their families ?

I am not trying to be smart or billigerent, these are sincere questions because have not met an advanced collector yet, who did not come away impressed with Peter's knowledge/ archieve of what he has seen/ handled,

Chris

Well, golly Chris, I can't possibly know the answer to that question as I have not had the pleasure of Mr van Lukacs' acquaintance nor do I know anything about this esteemed gentleman beyond what I have read in forums such as this or what I may have gleaned by perusing his commercial site. I do look forward to meeting him and other commenters here, some day.

Regarding OSS, all I can really write here is that I have been collecting since the late '60s and that he has been collecting even longer than have I and that he is one of the few in this hobby whose judgment in which I place the highest confidence when it comes to this and similar topics. Of course time spent in collecting does not necessarily relate to expertise about a given subject matter (ahem) but there are more here than just me that would likely express similar opinions about OSS' knowledge, expertise, and feel. All of us benefit from his participation which took so long to coax.

And I suppose there is no need to say that the opinions of a pure collector just might differ somewhat from a seller when it comes to vetting items, with all due respect to Mr van Lukacs of course...

[90th Light]

Well, golly Chris, I can't possibly know the answer to that question as I have not had the pleasure of Mr van Lukacs' acquaintance nor do I know anything about this esteemed gentleman beyond what I have read in forums such as this or what I may have gleaned by perusing his commercial site. I do look forward to meeting him and other commenters here, some day.

Regarding OSS, all I can really write here is that I have been collecting since the late '60s and that he has been collecting even longer than have I and that he is one of the few in this hobby whose judgment in which I place the highest confidence when it comes to this and similar topics. Of course time spent in collecting does not necessarily relate to expertise about a given subject matter (ahem) but there are more here than just me that would likely express similar opinions about OSS' knowledge, expertise, and feel. All of us benefit from his participation which took so long to coax.

And I suppose there is no need to say that the opinions of a pure collector just might differ somewhat from a seller when it comes to vetting items, with all due respect to Mr van Lukacs of course...

Thanks for the reply Mike,

I feel, your answer to this, gives everyone reading a bit more backround.

The challenge for every bona fide collector reading, is that they are being told very little about why the wrap is considered bad. The reason stated is, we do not want the fakers to find out more. The problem is, as these so- called "super-fakes" emerge, it would appear that the fakers have found out by reverse engineering. Thus they buy a known original, pull it to pieces, make a pattern then buy the materials needed.

A collector, who is not part of the North American ring which says every thing is "doubtful" except for what they have handled and approved. Is thus, left in the cold/ bewildered when they run across an unissued wrap, a used wrap or a variation made before May 1945. Such a collector is left wondering and put off the collecting wraps all together.

Every collector that I have talked to about this has said, "who the hell would ever take up collecting those" Real or fake, too risky, too much money and just not worth it for the nasty politics. Does not matter if it is good or bad, the same risk applies based on the increasing level of subjectivity. It will be interesting to see if the price of wraps starts to drop in the medium to long term as less and less collectors take it up.

Probably worth pointing out here however, that Peter has collected a lot longer than he has been a dealer. Lets not forget, that he offered at the start of this thread to put up as many images of the requested points of the wrap. Provided we all stayed focused on the wrap. "Just the wrap" He himself said, lets get to the bottom of why the North Americans think things are so bad.

To date, there are many posts which have not focused on the wrap. We might be saving ourselves from the fakers but we are taking the collecting of wraps to hell in a hand cart.

Again thank you Mike and I respect what you have shared with us regarding this matter,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

That day is not too far off in my view because as veteran collectors die off or leave the hobby, these more skillful fakes will be accepted more and more as the real thing by the undiscerning eye of newer collectors and those older collectors who don't have a good "eye". This vision of the future does not take into account the harm to the hobby that these counterfeit pieces do today, undermining the integrity of the market and causing newer collectors to turn away from the hobby because of the inherent dangers.

This is whats really sad. When the Old Guard of you die off and no one will be able to tell good from bad, all the "super" fakes will become legit original items and the perpetuation of bad items becoming good over time will increase. Talkin 50+years from now not just the present.
Already we see fake items from as late as the 70's being excepted by some as original WWII pieces....do to natural aging etc. However the price may come down as the market gets flooded with fakes that are then deemed legit.

Based on how easy it will be to tell good from bad in the future, what new collector (wraps etc) is going to smack down 10k+ unless he is not in any need of cash at the time. Oh, and ALL dealers sell fakes by the way. Just some more than others. Or should i say souped up items instead

On this wrap, it appears too good to be true, which usually means its not.....

Thanks Chris, you beat me to it. You have painted the picture a little broader than I.

[phild]

The challenge for every bona fide collector reading, is that they are being told very little about why the wrap is considered bad. The reason stated is, we do not want the fakers to find out more. The problem is, as these so- called "super-fakes" emerge, it would appear that the fakers have found out by reverse engineering. Thus they buy a known original, pull it to pieces, make a pattern then buy the materials needed.
.......
Every collector that I have talked to about this has said, "who the hell would ever take up collecting those" Real or fake, too risky, too much money and just not worth it for the nasty politics. Does not matter if it is good or bad, the same risk applies based on the increasing level of subjectivity. It will be interesting to see if the price of wraps starts to drop in the medium to long term as less and less collectors take it up.

Probably worth pointing out here however, that Peter has collected a lot longer than he has been a dealer. Lets not forget, that he offered at the start of this thread to put up as many images of the requested points of the wrap. Provided we all stayed focused on the wrap. "Just the wrap" He himself said, lets get to the bottom of why the North Americans think things are so bad.

To date, there are many posts which have not focused on the wrap. We might be saving ourselves from the fakers but we are taking the collecting of wraps to hell in a hand cart.

...
Chris

I agree. I especially agree that many posts were not about this wrap. The thread got off track very quickly. I wish that we could have approached this in the manner that JohnnyR posted in his link on the piped smoke off. tunic. There have been many other threads about as good as that one in just presenting the facts, but most seem to come down to personalities.

A few things are true.....at least too me:

1.One can not judge anyone else's ability to evaluate and judge an item unless you have a good deal of knowledge yourself. When you ask for a 2nd opinion on an item the aspects both pro and con (should there be both) need to make sense to you and some of them at least should be things that you caught yourself....good or bad, if you are goinf by blind faith in someones reputation you are on very thin ice with high money complicated items.

2. There seems to be a notion that some collectors can bat near a thousand in being able to discern fakes from orginals.....the problem with that is unless there is some magic scan that can verify the results of those declarations HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE RIGHT?!!
If you JUST know, then you didn't need their opinion to begin with. Consensus collecting or polls will not help you much with learning the truth.

3. Anyone who does not end up with at least a few unknowns or gray uncertian calls when it come to uniforms....most specifically when insignia was attached is a liar or at best an idiot in my opinion....I recommed for any new collector to steer clear of any such individual as thier word will be of zero help to you.

I wonder what would have been said about the subject wrap had it been presented as a stripped wrap and bearing an E or P 42 depot stamp?

[Glenn McInnes]

This one has gone way off course and is now closed.


Thanks to all that participated.











Glenn

[Glenn McInnes]

After giving it some thought and receiving several messages from members who find this thread very informative,I will re-open it but will delete several posts.


But please,stick to the discussion of the wrapper and leave the personal comments out of it.







Thank You,


Glenn

[derka]

Thank you Glenn, optimism and faith in human nature are such rare qualities...



Let's try this question : considering pics in #265 page 18, particulary the (poor) one of reverse colar, don't they raise any comments about what they imply ?
From a technical and logical point of wiew ?

derka

[B. N. Singer]

After giving it some thought,,,

But please,stick to the discussion of the wrapper and leave the personal comments out of it.


Thank You,


Glenn

I also applaud the administrator’s decision to keep this thread open; as I believe it to be paramount that collectors realize that there are forces at work in our hobby that will severely undermine the wellbeing of all who care about collecting.

Discussing/exposing ground up fakes such as this example will ultimately serve to make the hobby healthier and better for All collectors.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

Its almost impossible not to bring the human element into any discussion. The good fakes will present a good visual display of the object its trying to capture. Sewing is not rocket science and there is still a lot of original materials to make copies from. A greatcoat can easily provide enough material to make a Field Grey/black wrap or several M43 caps all worth many times the cost of the coat.

Its a lot more difficult to make a good reproduction of a valuable painting, especially with all the scientific tools available to check the composition of the paint, the canvas etc. Yet some fakers have found ways to replicate the technical aspects of paintings and in the end its a few "experts" looking at it to see if the brush strokes are correct etc. And they sometimes get it wrong.

So in the end the opinion someone has of an object will be totally subjective, based on what others have said. The good news is the collecting community hasn't tapped into the science available to determine the age of cloth, composition of 1940s cloth vs current etc. I think up till now its either been too expensive or not profitable enough to explore. But with not so rare $34, 000 tunics being sold I think the time will come. When it does, I think uniforms made from contemperary cloth will be quickily revealed.

So I have hope for the continued success of the hobby.

Jim

PS Vintage clothing collectors face the same challenges and are always trying to find solutions. Heres the title of one of their websites:

Research Vintage Clothing, Dating, Vintage Clothing Care, Fashion History, Fabric Identification & Resources

I agree. I especially agree that many posts were not about this wrap. The thread got off track very quickly. I wish that we could have approached this in the manner that JohnnyR posted in his link on the piped smoke off. tunic. There have been many other threads about as good as that one in just presenting the facts, but most seem to come down to personalities.

[djpool]

Just to expound on how science may one day assist collectors here is an excerpt from the Smithsonian on new methods to determine the age of silk without using large amounts of the subject cloth :

People have been weaving silk into fabric for at least 5,000 years. The delicate material, made from the threads silkworms excrete to create their cocoons, has been used for everything from the robes of Byzantine emperors to the parachutes of World War II paratroopers.
To historians, silk artifacts reflect the trade and social customs of past cultures. Researchers have long sought a surefire method that measures the age of silk for which there is no continuous historical record and uses just a tiny sample of the material. Now Mehdi Moini, a chemist at Smithsonian’s Museum Conservation Institute, has developed a technique to date silk based on its chemical composition. His technique serves as a kind of clock, and he is testing and calibrating it with silk of known vintage in the Institution’s collections. “Making a clock is easy,” he says. “Calibrating the clock is difficult.”

Silk proteins are made of amino acids, small molecules with a three-dimensional structure. Each amino acid has two possible variants, exact mirror images of each other: left-handed, known as “L” amino acids, and right-handed, referred to as “D.” The amino acids produced by most living things—like silkworms—are left-handed. The key to the dating process, Moini says, is that as silk proteins age, some of the amino acids rearrange themselves into the D variant. He can tell how old a silk thread is by looking at the ratio of D to L amino acids. At year zero, all will have the L structure; given enough time, there will eventually be equal parts of both. Researchers have been using this approach on various proteins for decades, but Moini is the first to apply it to very small samples of silk, says Darrell Kaufman, a geologist at Northern Arizona University.

Moini’s method uses a minuscule amount of material, something that appeals to curators of priceless fabrics. “If you go to a museum and say, ‘I want five milligrams of this precious silk,’ silk is very light, so five milligrams is a lot of compound,” Moini says. Previous techniques, such as carbon dating, consumed several milligrams of silk for each test; by contrast, he needs just one-hundredth that amount. “If there’s just one tiny speck of fabric,” he says, “it’s enough for us to do the analysis.”

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-c...#ixzz1uky0aAV0

[Leroy]

Regarding the Panzer Pioneer wrap which is the subject of this thread, doubts have been raised as to the eagle application, the lining and markings, the type of piping employed and the method of tresse application. (Someone also observed that the skull on the right-hand collar tab had broken away from its prongs and been re-sewn on sometime between when it was first posted years ago and today.) Because we have no additional photos (nor are we likely to get any now), I would personally like to know if anyone here saw anything else in the photos we did see which they think is worth commenting on or which they consider a clear indicator that the piece is bad.

[OSS]

Regarding the Panzer Pioneer wrap which is the subject of this thread, doubts have been raised as to the eagle application, the lining and markings, the type of piping employed and the method of tresse application. (Someone also observed that the skull on the right-hand collar tab had broken away from its prongs and been re-sewn on sometime between when it was first posted years ago and today.) Because we have no additional photos (nor are we likely to get any now), I would personally like to know if anyone here saw anything else in the photos we did see which they think is worth commenting on or which they consider a clear indicator that the piece is bad.

I think it is safe to say that no piped Pz. Pionier wrapper was ever contracted for by the Heeres Bekleidungs Amt (IMO). Only a small percentage of Pz. Pion. troops were issued the black Panzer combination; only those personnel serving inside enclosed fighting vehicles, which were few as most Pz. Pioniers were in armored personnel carriers (the black uniform was considered a liability, from a visibility standpoint, for those Pioniers operating in the open, as most were). Also, I think most of us agree this piping did not appear before mid-war. So while you mentioned the piping, I think it is important to also mention that a factory made, piped Pz. Pion. wrap falls into the fantasy catagory.