Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[John Pic]

Just look...I know it wont convince you, apparently Richard and Chris you're unwilling to admit the possibility you are wrong....I understand the frustration with the personalities in the "other" group they do have a sarcastic way about them sometimes...and this shouldn't surprise you because its a hobby phenomenon a lot of sarcastic people. Sometime's that overshadow's the knowledege a person has. Im experienced at being a caustic person myself.


Black dye used to dye shoulder boards left over from a deception job.

[John Pic]

The results with piping added afterward.

[John Pic]

Look at the workshop of a deciever....look at the supplies in the center is an SS TK for a cap.

[John Pic]

This tunic was "restored" but the restoration was supposedly not revealed.

[John Pic]

The stuff in the orange bottle at the to appears to be the stuff Deer hunters use to spray on their clothing to kill UV reflection.....and a bag full of tobacco to add to the deception.

[John Pic]

I do not know exactly where these photo's were taken they were posted once on the SS forum and quickly deleted because some recognized whose place this was right away.Also it was a time long ago when the moderator's were not sure of legal ramifications...which are none. I do know that the pictures were associated with one English dealer ripping someone off....who that was I do not know.

[John Pic]

On the estand as we speak there is a package of original thread and boxes of original horn buttons for sale.

[90th Light]

Just look...I know it wont convince you, apparently Richard and Chris you're unwilling to admit the possibility you are wrong....

Hello John,

it is not that I am unwilling to admit I am wrong. I have no problem with that, if in fact I am wrong. And it is not the sarcastism, although I do agree, that is getting none of us any where in the study of this wrap.

I agree totally, there are excellent fakes and some very talented fakers. What you show reinforces this and I thank you for taking the time to share these images.

What worries me however, is when we get it wrong and I say this for 3 reasons

1/ I have more than one proven example, where an expert in this matter has commented on an item in someones collection not being "the real deal". In each case, the item was tracked back to the original veteran source it came from and providence proved beyond doubt.

2/ Quantities of original, unissued items sold off by various dealers at different times, have been viewed with the up most suspicion because they are too new, too many and initially in some cases too cheap. There have been several ex-shop/ tailor finds over the years which fall into this catergory and ultimately declared bad/ fake by some or certain groups of experts.

3/ The collectors in Sweden and their experience has been totally dismissed in this matter. They are being viewed as "the poor cousins" in all of this. I have already made the point, that the personal of several German units escaped to Sweden at the end of WW2. Thus collectors in that part of the world, may have handled items which USA collectors have not had a chance to handle in any great quantity. This has been dismissed as absurd and the fact stated, that Russians stopped it so not many could get there. While I agree that the Russians may have stopped the escape from Germany via places like Stettin. They did not stop, the personal of German units which got into Sweden from Norway and Finland. Also many Estonians and Latvians who had fought with the Germans escaped to Sweden. How many prisoners did the Americans ever handle from those parts of the Reich ? Add to this, the Swedish nationals who fought for the Germans and then returned home. ( also lets figure in, what some Swedish collectors got to handle when the Berlin wall came down ).

So John, I am not blind to the high quality fakes and like all collectors today, I am always making a study of such things. This however, has to be balanced against the now very high levels of paranoia that exist and unresearched collector folklore, declaring perfectly original items bad.

I also would like to see, more examples of any tunics made by C.Helgemuth. Thus getting to see what some of their manufacture footprints are. Hopefully these could be compared with those specific points on the Pz. Pi Wrap.

Based on the reaction here, the involment of Kent Berg "Relics of the Reich" certainly seems to be a cause for alarm. It is however, not the final nails in the coffin that some would like to think. As I have already stated, it would be interesting to know where Ken got the wrap from.

I have always said, you have to look at each indicator on any item. Then work out which are positive and which are negative. The list which is larger, leads you to your conclusion. If these wraps (Pz.Pi. & GD) are such good fakes. Then why are we not seeing more appear on this thread. The faker would not have stopped at two when he/ she had it down to such a fine art. In fact we are yet to see anything else by this maker, good or bad.

Again many thanks for your input John, I respect what you have posted and your experience. I also appreciate the chance to be able to explain my point of view,

Chris

[TrondK]

John pic

That is some scary photos!

[John Pic]

Thank's Chris and I agree one has to be very very careful not to dismiss original material as bad...I showed a couple tunics that were not bad and could stand on their own and had them dismissed as reworked fakes..its very frustrating...especially when judging from posted pictures and working with different levels of acceptance. I have also seen absolute unquestionable fresh out of 65 years of storage called fake or questionable..because the insignia matched those used by fakers..original but lumped into the whole because of mass abuse of loose ones. On here it's a gamble worldwide opinion based on different experiences..some only have experience with these fakes and never touched and original but become "experts" on the forum's after 10 years of handling many fakes they believe are real...some only mimic opinion they are the constant echo of whatever expert they love..I for one will say I do not believe in experts just years of experience and encounters with fake and real and who and when, it sharpens the skills.
I think we all need to find common ground and push these jackwagons out of business as dealers.

[Leroy]

It does not surprise me that you continue to believe in the "Relics of the Reich" wrappers, or even the HG wrapper from the collector's guild. You, and perhaps Leroy may be the last two people on Earth who believe these wrappers to be genuine.

I do wish, OSS, that you would get your facts straight. I have NEVER said here that the "Der Spiess" wrap IS genuine, only that it possibly COULD be, and that, while certainly legitimate suspicions have indeed been raised, there has been no actual PROOF that it is fake. In fact, I indicated that I had my own reservations about it, and that, if I bothered to vote at all in the silly poll immediately interjected into this thread by Glenn after the casual request of a member, I would vote "not sure" as opposed to either "real" OR "fake". I suppose, though, that if I don't share your convictions of infallibility in these matters, and indeed hold out some slim chance that we could sometimes be wrong, I should hang my head in shame.

I have never commented at all, or stated an opinion concerning, the GD wrap and have never dealt with (and certainly never praised) "Relics of the Reich". Again, though, I suppose it serves some purpose for you to try to connect me with that name. As to the Collector's Guild wrap, I readily invite anyone to re-read all the threads connected with that wrap and decide who was the more intellectually honest in those discussions.

Questioning the historical validity or intellectual honesty of all parts of the "evaluation process" of a particular piece does not, and never will, amount to the "approval" of the piece. It is merely an effort, which many still consider important, to insure that the conclusion reached, whatever it may be, is based on fact rather than opinion. How you get from "Point A" to "Point B" matters, and when "infallible opinion" is substituted for "fact", you have all the makings of the lynch mob mentality illustrated in the cartoon Richard showed, a mentality which seems to be, embarassingly, in play here more and more frequently.

[B. N. Singer]

...As to the Collector's Guild wrap, I readily invite anyone to re-read all the threads connected with that wrap and decide who was the more intellectually honest in those discussions...

And not that it should enter into the discussion of this example in any way, but Gentry, on the SOLE basis of Originality, you would have No objections to purchasing/owning the Collector's Guild wraparound???
B. N. Singer

[OSS]

I do wish, OSS, that you would get your facts straight. I have NEVER said here that the "Der Spiess" wrap IS genuine, only that it possibly COULD be, and that, while certainly legitimate suspicions have indeed been raised, there has been no actual PROOF that it is fake. In fact, I indicated that I had my own reservations about it, and that, if I bothered to vote at all in the silly poll immediately interjected into this thread by Glenn after the casual request of a member, I would vote "not sure" as opposed to either "real" OR "fake". I suppose, though, that if I don't share your convictions of infallibility in these matters, and indeed hold out some slim chance that we could sometimes be wrong, I should hang my head in shame.

I have never commented at all, or stated an opinion concerning, the GD wrap and have never dealt with (and certainly never praised) "Relics of the Reich". Again, though, I suppose it serves some purpose for you to try to connect me with that name. As to the Collector's Guild wrap, I readily invite anyone to re-read all the threads connected with that wrap and decide who was the more intellectually honest in those discussions.

Questioning the historical validity or intellectual honesty of all parts of the "evaluation process" of a particular piece does not, and never will, amount to the "approval" of the piece. It is merely an effort, which many still consider important, to insure that the conclusion reached, whatever it may be, is based on fact rather than opinion. How you get from "Point A" to "Point B" matters, and when "infallible opinion" is substituted for "fact", you have all the makings of the lynch mob mentality illustrated in the cartoon Richard showed, a mentality which seems to be, embarassingly, in play here more and more frequently.

I feel I owe you an apology for including you in the company of the those members who defend fraudulent items on some misbegotten principal that someday many of these fakes will be proven genuine by some newly unearthed knowledge. That day is not too far off in my view because as veteran collectors die off or leave the hobby, these more skillful fakes will be accepted more and more as the real thing by the undiscerning eye of newer collectors and those older collectors who don't have a good "eye". This vision of the future does not take into account the harm to the hobby that these counterfeit pieces do today, undermining the integrity of the market and causing newer collectors to turn away from the hobby because of the inherent dangers.

[jacquesf]

I feel I owe you an apology for including you in the company of the those members who defend fraudulent items on some misbegotten principal that someday many of these fakes will be proven genuine by some newly unearthed knowledge. That day is not too far off in my view because as veteran collectors die off or leave the hobby, these more skillful fakes will be accepted more and more as the real thing by the undiscerning eye of newer collectors and those older collectors who don't have a good "eye". This vision of the future does not take into account the harm to the hobby that these counterfeit pieces do today, undermining the integrity of the market and causing newer collectors to turn away from the hobby because of the inherent dangers.

I agree 100%, this trend is imo the biggest thread to this hobby and is definitely used by fakers and fake peddlars to their advantage. As an ex intelligence officer, I can say that the use of disinformation is a powerfull tool and it is definitely being used in this hobby , very effectively and on a large scale.Jacques

[Mike Davis]

... You and I both know you don't collect wraps...

Richard, I'm afraid you have some bad intelligence here. I have had the pleasure of viewing OSS' spectacular collection, yes, including superlative wraps (you know, of the type actually produced for and worn by German soldiers during the war), on a couple of occasions. And I must say it was a real pleasure to take in such an incredible assemblage consisting of items needing no apologies or leaps of faith. I just thought I'd correct the record since it seems Mr Modest has no desire to do so himself.