Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[djpool]

I believe you know the German Army discontinued collar piping probably in '38 but definately by '39 (I have owned several issue '39 wrappers that never had collar piping). Your presumption is that tunics would be ordered with features which had been abolished.

I was thinking more 39/40 but yes. Not sure I assumed anything except to say that the subject wrap is a recreation of what I believe to be a wrap manufactured to depot standards and not a tailored piece.

[Leroy]

Yes, my dislike for this wrapper is not based on the more obvious errors, but rather the fundimental flaws.

Could you tell us what these are?

[OSS]

I was thinking more 39/40 but yes. Not sure I assumed anything except to say that the subject wrap is a recreation of what I believe to be a wrap manufactured to depot standards and not a tailored piece.

I've never seen a '40 dated piped wrapper, but we are in agreement that this was intended to appear like an issue wrapper.

[OSS]

Could you tell us what these are?

I will say that nearly all have been touched on in this thread. Sometimes just any one of these details would be seen as a red flag, but when you see two or three or more of these indicators in one object, it becomes nearly impossible for there to be any reasonable chance of it not being a fake. The more recent fakes are harder to tell than this one.

[Leroy]

I will say that nearly all have been touched on in this thread. Sometimes just any one of these details would be seen as a red flag, but when you see two or three or more of these indicators in one object, it becomes nearly impossible for there to be any reasonable chance of it not being a fake. The more recent fakes are harder to tell than this one.

I shall re-read, then, to see if a list might be compiled.

[B. N. Singer]

I was thinking more 39/40 but yes.

'39

B. N. Singer

[phild]

'39

B. N. Singer

I agree if you are saying that it was dropped within the year of 39. I have seen a few 39 depot dated wraps with what I beleive to be factory applied piping....of course they may have been made in 38 and delivered in 39 and so dated...who knows. From wraps that I have seen dated 39 I would say that factory applied piping in that year was in the minority nor have I seen a contract wrap dated 40 or later with factory applied collar piping.

[Richard P]

I am assuming the piping and the eagle are period made and I have seen both for sale at shows. I hope this is not what you are basing your opinion on. Any decent fake is going to include period insignia and buttons.

No, and thank you for responding. I would expect most all fakes to use original insignia if cheap enough, which Heer panzer insignia is and buttons, etc. The SS wraps are a different story, especially officers wraps, and the fakes usually fall apart because the fakers don't want to spend $5K on Original insignia.

Most of my opinions are based on German TR era assembly line production skills and the tell tale characteristics of same. It is very hard to imitate in my opinion. I have about 25 things I look for. If a wrap is missing maybe one or two, I will take a real hard look. Usually a wrap has to be 100% what I would expect to see if period made. One deviation from the norm might be O.K. Two or more and I walk away. Tailor made stuff is another can of worms.

Richard

[Richard P]

I agree if you are saying that it was dropped within the year of 39. I have seen a few 39 depot dated wraps with what I beleive to be factory applied piping....of course they may have been made in 38 and delivered in 39 and so dated...who knows. From wraps that I have seen dated 39 I would say that factory applied piping in that year was in the minority nor have I seen a contract wrap dated 40 or later with factory applied collar piping.

Phil,

A note on collar piping. Keep in mind that the Panzer Police piped their wraps right up until the end of the war. It is almost impossible to find one that does not have the collar piped in photos. I have dozens and dozens of panzer photos with piped collars and many are later war wraps and HG wraps. Perhaps they are all done after the fact, and not from the factory.

Richard

[derka]

Aside the question about date dropping for colar factory piping on wrap's colar.
For this Spiess pzpioniere wrap, condidering avaible pics, i think colar piping and colar piped tabs were applied during its manufacturing : lack of any visible alterations (like evidence of previous stiching) implies they were not added after, even if it is hard to judge and be 100% sure not having it in hands.
Of course, if such alterations would exist, like signs of previous insignia's appliation or reseewn evidence at colar edges, it would be very interesting to see them.
And on another hand, it is supposed to be a standart production wrap condering its caracteristics.
And THAT is one of the key points, as it excludes then a private tailor's or field unit's modification for the b&w piping wich would has been done later.
So here, colar piping and colar piped tabs appliation could have been done only at the stage of the factory manufacturing process; allegedly following specific intructions given by the owner of the wrap or its unit, but out of any official contract supply order hence lack of depot stamp.
I don't believe this hypothesis, but it is just my opinion.
derka

[djpool]

Of course your correct, I just always remember the statement in the Pruett/Edwards book to the effect that in 1940 certain units started wearing wraps without piping. Jim

'39

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

Another common wrap with black lining for sale.

[OSS]

Panzer Nachrichten wrappers are not common (IMO) and I suspect these two examples were made by the same hand.

[djpool]

My (obviously poor)attempt at sarcasm.

Panzer Nachrichten wrappers are not common (IMO) and I suspect these two examples were made by the same hand.

[LuckyStrike23]

Another common wrap with black lining for sale.

I would not buy this wrap nor would i buy any wrap by this dealer.