Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[naxos]

Not that it adds much to the debate - but for what it’s worth;

The Heeresbekleidungsammt in Posen at Nollendorfstrasse 22 was only a few blocks from the uniform supplier C. Wohlgemuth.

[brooksbz]

true

This is true

[brooksbz]

195

This is true

I was referring to post #195.

[derka]

Thanks derka, ( also Besslein, Djpool and Zauberfltte )

the reason I posted the cap lining in post number 178, is because it does relate to the Pz.Pi wrap in question.

In that post we see an item of Panzer clothing made not far from "Posen" with a black lining and the same type of white stencil stamps. This item however was made in 1941. The question posed by this; is the use of a black lining and white stencil makers marks, a period production footprint of clothing manufacturer in that area before May 1945 and was it happening before 1944 ???

I agree however, my point about production from "Stettin" was a sidetrack and probably just of interest to me. I thank all who posted to answer that aspect and will leave that part there. Except to ask; does anyone else have a panzer wrap or panzer sidecap made in "Stettin" ???

If they do, does it have a black lining and white stencil stamps ???

Many thanks, Chris

Chris,
I try to search about your questions, and at this stage, i just have few elements, based on pics studies i will not put here for copyright respect and some of my own items.
- I didn't find a sidecap, feldgrau or pz (black), with Posen or Stettin stamps inside.
- But found officers sidecaps, feldgrau and pz (black), using a black lining, some with white ink size indications and some without, althought none of them have year or Bekleindungsamt or maker informations.
- I found fery few EM black (pz) sidecaps with black lining, mostly tailor made imo (and not died initial feldgrau sidecaps), but they are quite seldomly encountered comparing with black (pz) officers sidecaps whith black lining.
- There are different kind of black lining material used, coton or rayon.
- Almost every of those black (pz) sidecaps with black lining have a soutache, so i think that it is logical and correct to deduce that they were made at least before september 1942, date of the official order of removal of soutache on existing sidecaps, with this order was not followed strictly as it can be observed on period pics.
- All panzerpionier black sidecaps had a twisted b&w soutache shown on the below pic, but the fleck pattern (as used on the panzerpioniere spiess wrap or on shoulder straps or colar tabs shown in this thread) is not observed on surviving existing exemples of black sidecaps as far i know.



- i couldn't find a period pic showing the use for insignias of fleck b&w piping during ww2 on any pzpionier item.

Just my 2 cents, not a definitive judgement.

derka

[90th Light]

Chris,
I try to search about your questions, and at this stage, i just have few elements, based on pics studies i will not put here for copyright respect and some of my own items.
- I didn't find a sidecap, feldgrau or pz (black), with Posen or Stettin stamps inside.
- But found officers sidecaps, feldgrau and pz (black), using a black lining, some with white ink size indications and some without, althought none of them have year or Bekleindungsamt or maker informations.
- I found fery few EM black (pz) sidecaps with black lining, mostly tailor made imo (and not died initial feldgrau sidecaps), but they are quite seldomly encountered comparing with black (pz) officers sidecaps whith black lining.
- There are different kind of black lining material used, coton or rayon.
- Almost every of those black (pz) sidecaps with black lining have a soutache, so i think that it is logical and correct to deduce that they were made at least before september 1942, date of the official order of removal of soutache on existing sidecaps, with this order was not followed strictly as it can be observed on period pics.
- All panzerpionier black sidecaps had a twisted b&w soutache shown on the below pic, but the fleck pattern (as used on the panzerpioniere spiess wrap or on shoulder straps or colar tabs shown in this thread) is not observed on surviving existing exemples of black sidecaps as far i know.



- i couldn't find a period pic showing the use for insignias of fleck b&w piping during ww2 on any pzpionier item.

Just my 2 cents, not a definitive judgement.

derka

Thank you derka for your endeavours and investigation into this,

what I had not said about the "1941 Lago Stettin Pz. sidecap" until now, This is not a WH example. The reason I did not mention this is because I do not want to bog this thread down on that point. I want us to focus on the Pz.Pi. wrap.

I posted that black Pz. cap, because it has a black lining with white stencil stamp MM. This cap came out of Russia when the Berlin Wall came down. When you could buy an original black Pz. cap for next to nothing. Look at all the "Lago Berlin" examples which George Peterson got at that time. This was a time before the Latvian & super-fakes challenge/ paranoia of today. They wanted USA $ and they had good German militaria to sell for it.

Thus we have a Pz. cap with a black lining & white stencil stamps from a Lago manufacturer in Stettin that not many collectors of German militaria have ever heard of or seen. I have not been able to find any other Lago-Stettin items. Again some reading this may have examples and I would be pleased to see them.

Who were Lago-Stettin and where did all the uniform items that they made go ??? My feeling is that they went east because Lago-Stettin was part of "Wehrkreis II. To explain what I mean, lets consider the 12 Panzer-Div. which was raised and based in Stettin. From 1941 it fought only on the Russian Front, ending up in 1945 in Kurland. It is likely that this division would have received uniforms manufactured by firms in Wehrkreis II, which was located in Stettin.

I surmise that it was general practice for units raised in one area to obtain uniforms in the first instance manufactured within that Wehrkreis. This was the case with units outfitted with tropical uniforms and sent to Afrika in 1941. Hence, if I am right then 12th Pz-Div would have been outfitted with uniforms made in Stettin and other towns/ cities in Wehrkreis II. The same would also apply to the 14th Pz-Div, located in Dresden, Wehrkreis IV which the 13 Pz.Pi. Abt. belonged.

The 12th & 14th Panzer divisions fought entirely from June 1941 to May 1945 in the east. How many personel of these panzer divisions were captured by the Americans ? How many American collectors today have ever handled an original panzer wrap or panzer cap from these divisions ? There are other Pz. divisions in the east that this also applies to.

Another thing to mention, is that personal from both the 12th, 14th & other German eastern divisions escaped to Sweden in May 1945. Thus advanced Swedish collectors may have seen & handled more Pz. wraps & Pz caps from Pz divisions that served in the east than American collectors ???

Several Swedish collectors/ dealers were able to quickly get into Russia when the Berlin wall came down. Some even got in before it came down. They saw what was there in 1988 & 1989. The happy time before the big influx of fakes.

I will finish by saying, I have put up in post number 178, a Pz. cap with black lining & white stencil MM which came from the eastern front to show that they exist. Some may say that this is also a fake because it has a black lining & white stamp. Well so be it and they are entitled to their opinion, but you can not fault it on anything else when you hold it in hand.

I will leave you all with three questions;

1/ Is a black lining & white MM in a Panzer wrap or cap, a manufacturer's footprint of a maker based in "Stettin", "Posen" or any other immediate area supplying uniforms to Wehrkreis II ???

2/ Do we have evidence to substantiate the notion that all units drew the greater majority of their uniforms from the main station base in their Wehrkreis. Which would have included all firms producing uniforms inside that Wehrkreis. This would establish a geagraphical relationship between where a unit was based and where the uniforms issued to that unit where made ???

3/ If a black lining and white MM in a panzer wrap is the red flag of a fake. Then why do we not see any made in "Stettin" ??? To date, why are they marked "Posen" Stettin was after-all, larger with more manufacturers ??? Is my image in post number 178 the first example of a "Stettin" made black panzer clothing to surface ???


Surely not,

Chris

[OSS]

[QUOTE=90th Light;5275742


I surmise that it was general practice for units raised in one area to obtain uniforms in the first instance manufactured within that Wehrkreis. This has been proved to be the case with units outfitted with tropical uniforms and sent to Afrika in 1941. Hence, if I am right then 12th Pz-Div would have been outfitted with uniforms made in Stettin and other towns and cities in Werhkreis II. The same could also apply to the 14th Pz-Div, which the 13 Pz.Pi. belonged.

The 12th & 14th Panzer divisions fought entirely from June 1941 to May 1945 in the east. How many personal of these panzer divisions were captured by the Americans ? How many American collectors today have ever handled an original panzer wrap or panzer cap from these divisions ? There are other Pz. divisions in the east that this also applies to.

Another thing to mention, is that personal from both the 12th, 14th & other German eastern divisions escaped to Sweden in May 1945. Thus advanced Swedish collectors may have seen & handled more Pz. wraps & Pz caps from Pz divisions that served in the east than American collectors ???


[/QUOTE]





I have heard your theory before that German units in the East received clothing solely or primarily from manufacturers in the eastern portion of the Reich (and presumably troops in Afrika and Italy from Southern Germany etc., etc.). This is perhaps one of the most absurd ideas I have ever read on the Forum. Also the idea that American (and other Western Allies didn't come into contact with "Eastern" German forces is equally laughable as most German units tried and many succeeded to surrender to Allied forces in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Italy and Austria. Many of the Divisions in the Ardennes were transferred from the East. As for Sweden, I understand they expelled Germans attempting to seek refuge into Sweden, often into the waiting arms of the Soviets. Anyway, I couldn't agree with you less.

[90th Light]

I have heard your theory before that German units in the East received clothing solely or primarily from manufacturers in the eastern portion of the Reich (and presumably troops in Afrika and Italy from Southern Germany etc., etc.). This is perhaps one of the most absurd ideas I have ever read on the Forum. Also the idea that American (and other Western Allies didn't come into contact with "Eastern" German forces is equally laughable as most German units tried and many succeeded to surrender to Allied forces in Germany, Czechoslovakia, Italy and Austria. Many of the Divisions in the Ardennes were transferred from the East. As for Sweden, I understand they expelled Germans attempting to seek refuge into Sweden, often into the waiting arms of the Soviets. Anyway, I couldn't agree with you less.

Hello Ramsey,

by all means please share your research into this.

Just to give you an example, and to show how what you have written is already wrong. There were two Wehrkreis that supplied the tropical uniforms to troops going to Afrika in 1941.

I can tell you which Wehrkreis they were. Thus, please show me where I have ever stated that they were both in southern Germany . If you are up with this, then please tell me to which two Wehrkreis I am referring to and where they were based.

Please refrain from misquoting me and I look forward to your findings.

Also, far from "absurd", I think this might be one of the fundamental problems with threads like this. We have a well versed group of North American collectors who have honed in on the characteristics of a convenient selection of wraps from their veterans. These are the characteristics by which the entire population of panzer wraps of the whole Third Reich are now being judged. Thus how accurate is the sample of the population, what is the margin of error and is there a need for further on-going research.

Chris

p.s. 1/ many German units in the east never made it to the Americans or were entirely surrounded before they got a chance

2/ handing back of Wehrmacht personal was the official view of the Swedish government but the reality at the time was ? ( Interestingly "Stettin" was one of the main escape places/ ports )

[derka]

Chris,

I don't think a black lining with white ink in a black wrap, a sidecap or a field cap should by itself automaticaly considered as a red flag.
That said, the use of black lining is seldomly encountered into those items, and was obviously not used at large scale by big industrial manufacturers.
You can find it mostly used by small makers, for a far smaller number of items produced, hence their relative rarity.
Add to that that in the Heer, black sonderbekleindung specific to those panzer items was only a part of the whole production of cloth headgear and uniforms: as far i know for instance, black lining was not used into feldgrau wraps or tunics, and only into very few officers feldgrau sidecaps...

derka

[Richard P]

Richard,

OK you can’t tell; I can accept that. Sometimes, I can’t tell either from pictures.

But in this specific case, it is a "slam-dunk" call IMO.

Regards,
B. N. singer

Since the wrap is a slam dunk for you...the boards must be a mere glance for you to make a judgement call.

I for one, wanted a lot more photos before I opened my mouth with an opinion.

Richard

[Richard P]

I posted some comments before on the markings, but they are no longer on the thread.

If you use some common logic: Why would a faker make two completely different stamps, different letter fonts...and also different number fonts? Could he not have just changed one or the other, if he thought needed variety? I think the different stampings would cause more questions than two of the same type should have. Not with this crowd.

At least he was a total moron and forgot to look at the hundred's of original wraps worldwide and realize they all have depot marks, and still he didn't depot mark them. That has to be some sort of bonehead move record for a faker.

He could have saved a few bucks, or Euros and just used the same stamps, size and all in both wraps. There went his profit margin.

Richard

[derka]

I posted some comments before on the markings, but they are no longer on the thread.

If you use some common logic: Why would a faker make two completely different stamps, different letter fonts...and also different number fonts? Could he not have just changed one or the other, if he thought needed variety? I think the different stampings would cause more questions than two of the same type should have. Not with this crowd.

At least he was a total moron and forgot to look at the hundred's of original wraps worldwide and realize they all have depot marks, and still he didn't depot mark them. That has to be some sort of bonehead move record for a faker.

He could have saved a few bucks, or Euros and just used the same stamps, size and all in both wraps. There went his profit margin.

Richard

Richard,

Some perfectly original wraps don't have any depot mark and date, just size indications and maker indications (clear id or rbnr).
So lack of depot mark into a wrap can't be considered as an absolute red flag by itself.
IMHO, this is not the main concern with markings into this spiess pzpioniere wrap.
derka

[Leroy]

Would it not be correct to say the following?:

1.) There are no written requirements or specifications (at least that anyone has found so far) that the lining of a wrap be made of a certain color material;
2.) Not all wraps have depot markings;
3.) Not all wraps have maker marks, although most will have them, either in the form of actual names or, later, RB numbers;
4.) Some companies produced significantly more wraps than others and are, accordingly, seen with more frequency;
5.) The total quantity of wraps produced during the war, by large companies and very small "mom and pop" firms, is staggering - hundreds of thousands, if not (if you compare to FJ smocks) perhaps a million or even more;
6.) Our judgments and opinions are based on what we customarily see, but not even the most advanced collector has seen or, more importanly, been able to physically examine in hand, more than a few hundred wraps;
6.) "Signatures" of certain manufacturers can be cataloged, but even those
can vary somewhat depending on wartime conditions, including materials available and skill of workers available. The characteristics of wraps from "well-known" firms are easier to catalog than those from obscure firms;


Although the above may sound like a "free ride" for fakers, aren't the statements true?

There is no doubt fakers have been busy for years and years and that probably the majority of wraps seen at shows or on internet sales sites are bogus. The wrap which started this thread may be an "obvious" fake to some, but, so far, I haven't read anything, from anyone, which would convince me one way or the other. (I personally don't like the way the Spiess tresse is sewn, but that's just based on seeing tresse applications in other scenarios - how could that possibly be sufficient? I also am bothered by the lack of documentation regarding the piping material, but, again, is that enough? If you take those two factors in combination - and others are suggested, too - now you start to have "multiple concerns", but is even that "raised level of doubt" actual proof that something is fake?)

Seems to me that we are just trying to establish some artificial "comfort zone" for ourselves, very little of which is based on what anyone, in the cold, hard light of day, could rationally regard as "proof".

[OSS]

Leroy you neglect to mention on your checklist that while piped collars were officially discontinued before the war, this one not only has one but with piping not seen until the mid-war period. I personally do not believe a piped Pz. Pion. wrapper was ever contracted by the Heeres Bekleidungsamt, as only a very small percentage of Pz. Pion. Bataillons were authorized to wear the black combination (only those personnel who served in enclosed fighting vehicles). There were Medical Doctors serving in Panzer regiments with their own tanks (with the Caduceus painted on the turret) yet I would greet with equal suspicion a blue piped Panzer wrapper. Perhaps that will be coming next.

[Leroy]

OSS - I didn't intentionally "neglect" anything. You are entirely correct about piped collars - yet we occasionally see them on pieces produced after September, 1939. Again, a point of "concern", but proof of nothing. I fully understand and appreciate, and accept, that, as points of "concern" mount, the liklihood of purchase by a collector decreases. My point was that (and you have touched on this) the liklihood of a wrapper such as the one which started this thread being a straight and 'standard' issue piece, and thus capable of being judged only from photographs and from the current state of "proved" knowledge in the collector community, with absolute confidence, would be slim. I have no problem with anyone deciding not to buy this wrap, nor, however, would I have a problem with someone (but only after they have actually and carefully looked at the wrap "in hand") making the decision to buy it.

The only "proof" of anything I have seen in this thread is that there actually was a maker of the name and location stamped in the wrap.

[Luca Ongaro]

Richard,

Some perfectly original wraps don't have any depot mark and date, just size indications and maker indications (clear id or rbnr).
So lack of depot mark into a wrap can't be considered as an absolute red flag by itself.
IMHO, this is not the main concern with markings into this spiess pzpioniere wrap.
derka

Ditto.
Luca