Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[djpool]

Well it blows a hole in the Private Purchase arguement, unless the GD Private special ordered his too. But no judgement. I'm having a hard time trying to sort fake caps and tunics from originals anymore. The crooks have nailed many of the technical aspects that collectors look for. I would love to see what our Polish or German members can find out about the manufacturer though. Jim

Funny ain't it? And I suspect that most of these rare creations probably came out of the "Relics of the Reich" bunker.


What a joke!






Glenn

[Glenn McInnes]

Well it blows a hole in the Private Purchase arguement, unless the GD Private special ordered his too. But no judgement. I'm having a hard time trying to sort fake caps and tunics from originals anymore. The crooks have nailed many of the technical aspects that collectors look for. I would love to see what our Polish or German members can find out about the manufacturer though. Jim

Yes,only the elite Pz divisions ordered wrappers from this maker,at least that is what the argument will probably be..

One of the reasons why threads like this don't go anywhere and will go on endlessly for page after page. You know,the "textbook" collectors verses the "everything is original until proven otherwise" collectors.

One thing the fakers certainly know...There is a sucker born every minute.







Glenn

[kammo man]

Nice to see you have already went there Richard with the "vast experience" comment.


Regardless of the lesson you provided on different inks used which is German marking 101 .................this jacket appears to have its markings tampered with.
And I am NOT talking about the strike , paint , or anything else..........only the fact the markings seem worn in a non consistent way.........

Now when the thread was started comments like the one you threw out were asked NOT to be used.
So please try to get off the sly dig thing that you are ready to launch,


owen

[Richard P]

Well it blows a hole in the Private Purchase arguement, unless the GD Private special ordered his too. But no judgement. I'm having a hard time trying to sort fake caps and tunics from originals anymore. The crooks have nailed many of the technical aspects that collectors look for. I would love to see what our Polish or German members can find out about the manufacturer though. Jim

I would like to find that out too. I suspect this firm never received a RBNr number because they were a small Jewish tailoring shop/firm who was probably shut down mid war and fled or were killed. I haven't been able to find out anything. It will take a phone book from the period and the area to really nail it down.

If the fakers can figure all this out, surely we can too.

Richard

[Richard P]

Nice to see you have already went there Richard with the "vast experience" comment.


Regardless of the lesson you provided on different inks used which is German marking 101 .................this jacket appears to have its markings tampered with.
And I am NOT talking about the strike , paint , or anything else..........only the fact the markings seem worn in a non consistent way.........

Now when the thread was started comments like the one you threw out were asked NOT to be used.
So please try to get off the sly dig thing that you are ready to launch,


owen

Sorry Owen...slams seem to carry over from other threads in the back of my mind. Sorry for mixing up threads and some sly digs from you aimed at me.

I officially apologize.

Richard

[djpool]

Like I mentioned I'm not 100% positive that C. Wohlgemuth was Jewish but the evidence seems to be leaning in that direction. If thats true then I doubt their shop was still in business in 1943!

"The Germans invaded Poland on the 31 August / 1 September 1939 and using blitzkrieg tactics quickly defeated the Polish forces, before the arrival of German troops in early September 1939, many Jews fled Poznan, seeking refuge with relatives in other parts of Poland.

The Germans marched into the city on the 10 September 1939 and five days later they confiscated thousands of books that were held in the Jewish library. They forbade Jewish schools to open on the 16 September and they closed Jewish shops on the 20 September 1939.

The Jewish shops were taken over by the NSV (National Socialist Social Welfare) organisation".

[Hasse.M]

I will not take my wrapper to Peter tomorrow for more pictures.
Its not worth the time.

Yes,only the elite Pz divisions ordered wrappers from this maker,at least that is what the argument will probably be..

One of the reasons why threads like this don't go anywhere and will go on endlessly for page after page. You know,the "textbook" collectors verses the "everything is original until proven otherwise" collectors.

One thing the fakers certainly know...There is a sucker born every minute.

I offer my wrapper here for you all to discuss. But then I want a discussion. Not **** like that. Whats your point Glenn? Ruin another thread?

Congrats you did it.

[Naval Enigma]

Evidently this manufacturer only specialized in rare wrappers.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/Foru...d.php?t=314571

Regards Jim

I apologize ahead of time for this question, but I looked at the linked to wraps. Are they bad and made by the same person? I'm trying to follow this but got a little lost.

[Glenn McInnes]

I will not take my wrapper to Peter tomorrow for more pictures.
Its not worth the time.

Yes,only the elite Pz divisions ordered wrappers from this maker,at least that is what the argument will probably be..

One of the reasons why threads like this don't go anywhere and will go on endlessly for page after page. You know,the "textbook" collectors verses the "everything is original until proven otherwise" collectors.

One thing the fakers certainly know...There is a sucker born every minute.

I offer my wrapper here for you all to discuss. But then I want a discussion. Not **** like that. Whats your point Glenn? Ruin another thread?

Congrats you did it.

Discuss away Hasse,I will stay out of it. It just looks so obviously bad to me that I tend to get a bit frustrated.


For me the jacket is fake,the lining is fake,the markings are bogus and so on,but that is just my opinion.





Glenn

[Z19]

Wrap

Funny ain't it? And I suspect that most of these rare creations probably came out of the "Relics of the Reich" bunker.


What a joke!

Glenn

WOW...Glenn when you drop a bomb on a conversation it's a big un!!

Alex

[kammo man]

Rich ,
Its all cool and the gang .
o

[B. N. Singer]

I will not take my wrapper to Peter tomorrow for more pictures.
Its not worth the time.


I offer my wrapper here for you all to discuss. But then I want a discussion. Not **** like that. Whats your point Glenn? Ruin another thread?

Congrats you did it.

It is a pity you feel this way Sir, but it is your example and you are well entitled to do as you see fit.

The sad reality is however, and I will speak for others who are well versed on this type of garment, that it is a ground up FAKE.

My reasons will not be explained, just as I have not explain them to Mr. P v L (or anyone else) on the occasions that he (they) has asked for my opinion.

My apologies are extended to all if no one accepts this as I mean no malice, spite or agenda against anyone.

Being happy with one’s collection is what should count the most in a hobby and you are the one to make that choice, certainly not me.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

First I'm not making any comment as to originality of either wrap. However we have these wraps manufactured and decked out to 2 of the rarest and most desirable units in the German army. Coincidence? They are both lined in black which is fairly rare. Coincidence? Neither one is Depot stamped and the arguement for the lack of stamps is because they were commercially made. Coincidence? The truth is sometimes items got into the Depot system without being Depot stamped. The stamps on both wraps appear to be identical except they changed the order and location. Coincidence? Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it? I think it was a requirement from the contracting agency. I've handled a lot of tailored tunics over the years and I have never seen a private purchase piece stamped like this.

I can't talk to all the fine points of sewing etc like Bryon, Glenn can but I have a strong belief the stamp is bogus and that the manufacturer wasn't in business by mid war.

Jim

I apologize ahead of time for this question, but I looked at the linked to wraps. Are they bad and made by the same person? I'm trying to follow this but got a little lost.

[Naval Enigma]

First I'm not making any comment as to originality of either wrap. However we have these wraps manufactured and decked out to 2 of the rarest and most desirable units in the German army. Coincidence? They are both lined in black which is fairly rare. Coincidence? Neither one is Depot stamped and the arguement for the lack of stamps is because they were commercially made. Coincidence? The truth is sometimes items got into the Depot system without being Depot stamped. The stamps on both wraps appear to be identical except they changed the order and location. Coincidence? Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it? I think it was a requirement from the contracting agency. I've handled a lot of tailored tunics over the years and I have never seen a private purchase piece stamped like this.

I can't talk to all the fine points of sewing etc like Bryon, Glenn can but I have a strong belief the stamp is bogus and that the manufacturer wasn't in business by mid war.

Jim

Thanks Jim! You've raised some serious red flags.

That helps a lot.

[90th Light]

Like I mentioned I'm not 100% positive that C. Wohlgemuth was Jewish but the evidence seems to be leaning in that direction. If thats true then I doubt their shop was still in business in 1943!

"The Germans invaded Poland on the 31 August / 1 September 1939 and using blitzkrieg tactics quickly defeated the Polish forces, before the arrival of German troops in early September 1939, many Jews fled Poznan, seeking refuge with relatives in other parts of Poland.

The Germans marched into the city on the 10 September 1939 and five days later they confiscated thousands of books that were held in the Jewish library. They forbade Jewish schools to open on the 16 September and they closed Jewish shops on the 20 September 1939.

The Jewish shops were taken over by the NSV (National Socialist Social Welfare) organisation".

Jim,

The removal of Jewish artisans from clothing businesses in Poland did not take place until April 1942 and was completed by June 1943. If this factory was originally owned by Jewish owners in Posen then it would have been allowed to continue in business under German management until the later half of 1942. All Jewish artisans employed in Poland in industries needed for the war effort were allowed to stay in their jobs at their place of work until this time when an increasing deportation to the Gettos (later the camps) was ordered and undertaken.

"Wohlgemuth" would have been in business until some time in the later half of 1942 under that name. After which they would have become an RB numbered firm fully under German control with replaced workers. They may even have become SS property for "SS production only" by 1943,

Chris