Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Zauberflöte]

Here is a link to an interesting thread about burlap materials. Colors vary from white to dark blue, gray, etc but no truly "black" as everything else on the wrap. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=120151

Interesting thread indeed with a lot of black liners shown .... Anyway, also found a quote of mr. Singer:

"... Finding Pz wraparound with a black lining (and especially with black support material as well) is quite Uncommon from what little I have encountered. "

As I said myself, uncommon but not impossible. But again, with all do respect, although I am maybe no wrapper King, I have walked my miles in collectors-land and don't feel much like defending my wrapper. I merely showed it with respect to illustrate the black liner, so if you don't mind I would like to leave it to that.

Thanks again for pointing out that thread.

F.

[B. N. Singer]

I would like to FOCUS on the subject jacket of this thread.

That being said, I will confirm that although uncommon, I have encountered black bias material in Original Heer wraparounds.

B. N. Singer

[phild]

I would like to FOCUS on the subject jacket of this thread.

That being said, I will confirm that although uncommon, I have encountered black bias material in Original Heer wraparounds.

B. N. Singer

Bryon,

I'm not asking you to give away any of your secrets....but is there anything that you can see with this wap (other than the piping aspect perhaps) that you have NOT encountered in an original? Obviously I am asking for at least some specific pointers like for instance thread, Material, stamp composition or something about the cut/shape.....I see that non of this would give one thing away to any faker on how to correct something.

I can tell you that I am bothered by the first 3 of those four things, BUT I can not say that those things together even make the wrap a fake. I can accept that I too have seen basic cloth tabs on mid and later wraps...maybe they were used earlier..I just may not have seen or noticed that before...I have not inspected 2000 real ones so my data pool is not even 1% of all made!

IF the bigger issue here is that someone has inspected a wrap like this one and determined it to be fake for some hard reason....like the dealer had 10 of them, or dacron/poly thread was used in tack in the lapel lining or they know who made them in 1996 or whatever.....I could accept that as well.

Just to make it clear that I am not trying to toy with anyone here or with any ideas on how a wrap should look, I understand 100% what most every detail of a "textbook" issue wrap should look like (Heer) and I have examined many many dozens under a loop since the later 70s....not saying that I can not be fooled or am an expert or would not ask for other opinions....but just saying that there is no magic in this.....just detailed examination, some luck and getting the experience of looking at a lot of good ones and bad ones and knowing which were which at the time...or least finding out the truth later!

[dukhunter]

Bryon,

I'm not asking you to give away any of your secrets....but is there anything that you can see with this wap (other than the piping aspect perhaps) that you have NOT encountered in an original? Obviously I am asking for at least some specific pointers like for instance thread, Material, stamp composition or something about the cut/shape.....I see that non of this would give one thing away to any faker on how to correct something.

I can tell you that I am bothered by the first 3 of those four things, BUT I can not say that those things together even make the wrap a fake. I can accept that I too have seen basic cloth tabs on mid and later wraps...maybe they were used earlier..I just may not have seen or noticed that before...I have not inspected 2000 real ones so my data pool is not even 1% of all made!

IF the bigger issue here is that someone has inspected a wrap like this one and determined it to be fake for some hard reason....like the dealer had 10 of them, or dacron/poly thread was used in tack in the lapel lining or they know who made them in 1996 or whatever.....I could accept that as well.

Just to make it clear that I am not trying to toy with anyone here or with any ideas on how a wrap should look, I understand 100% what most every detail of a "textbook" issue wrap should look like (Heer) and I have examined many many dozens under a loop since the later 70s....not saying that I can not be fooled or am an expert or would not ask for other opinions....but just saying that there is no magic in this.....just detailed examination, some luck and getting the experience of looking at a lot of good ones and bad ones and knowing which were which at the time...or least finding out the truth later!

Thank you, Phild!

duk

[B. N. Singer]

Bryon,...is there anything that you can see with this wap...

Sir, I really doubt that I will be able to answer your questions to a degree that you or I will be comfortable with.

I will try; Glenn has already mentioned several.

The lining is very atypical and unlike anything that I have encountered in a Heer wraparound. Add to that a maker’s stamp at a time period inconsistent with when this color lining is typically encountered. The collar tabs, although not impossible, are certainly a bit atypical in their manufacture. And finally, there are a number of wear/lack of wear and soiling points that are of concern.

Technically the example is Very Well executed from a manufacturer's standpoint; and therein lies the danger (for me at least).

I would not be surprised that if more detailed pictures were available this list would be expanded.

I hope that this might be of some small help.

Regards,
Bryon

[ccnrecon]

One of the conclusions that can be drawn from this thread is that there exists a wide rift between those who have the ability to determine the authenticity of garments like the one that started this thread, and those that do not. There are people here who have been on the scene a long time, and have handled enough original examples to make a judgment on originality. For those who do not, collecting wraps is becoming brutally difficult. In post #93 in this thread Kammo Man makes a point that merits further discussion. That being the arrival of post-war constructed super fake wraps constructed of original materials, buttons and insignia, with construction details, markings and sewing so precise the ablity to distinguish good from bad is on the verge of becoming eclipsed.

[derka]

..."I would not be surprised that if more detailed pictures were available this list would be expanded.

Regards,
Bryon"

Unfortunatly, not realy detailled pictures in this old thread :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=spiess

But interesting comments in # 6.

derka

[shinerb]

So Derka traced it back to 2003. That only leaves 60 years more of tracing or less if it was made post 1945.

[djpool]

Hi Michael,

I think your assuming these high end crooks are lazy or stupid. I think that would be a mistake. There is so much money involved that its worth it for these folks to purchase and study original pieces and try to replicate them as closely as possible. I don't believe the fakers are capable of producing the perfect fake but I do believe they can produce a product thats visually almost perfect. The fakers do read these forums and as members point out weaknesses they try to correct them. A few years ago maker stamps were pretty poor. With the knowledge that collectors are looking at manufacturer stamps and depot stamps by year the faker has changed their strategy. I've seen some very convincing stamps in the last few years.

There are a lot of research resources available for the faker to draw on-Phone books on CD, German Register of firms etc. I saw a beautiful series of books that listed wartime manufacturers that sold on a dealer site a few months ago. I hope it went to a researcher not a faker.

We've established that C. Wohlgemuth was a wartime company. What we don't have are some good no brainer original items produced by the firm. These guys evidently produced Civil, Political and Military Uniform items-so where are they. Its hard to believe that the only surviving items are a rare GD Wrap, Pz Pi wrap and as Richard P. stated 3 W-SS field grey wraps. I would love to see a plain jane m40 tunic all beat up and stripped of all insignia from this firm!

If you think I'm being paranoid talk to one of the firm owners that produce reenactor uniforms and ask them what their customers want. They want uniforms that are exactly like those issued to the German soldier. Same materials, exactly the same style of stamps, sewing techniques etc.

As I remember Jahnke reproductions drove the collecting community crazy 15 years ago, as did the French HBT wraps, Czech Splinter Smocks etc. The new generation of fakes are much better. Its a badge of honor for these crooks when they get one over on the collecting community.

Jim

AWESOME research !
from my point of view it would take insane guy to put a very hard to research manufacturer, thats pretty much non-existent unless You look for ww2 phone book of Posen, and put it on a fake jacket, it seems that most fakers tries to fake a common manufacturers with known logos so these items "blend" better in the mix...

on the other hand You may want to put a rare maker on fake jacket so its impossible to compare it with other specimens....

[phild]

Sir, I really doubt that I will be able to answer your questions to a degree that you or I will be comfortable with.

I will try; Glenn has already mentioned several.

The lining is very atypical and unlike anything that I have encountered in a Heer wraparound. Add to that a maker’s stamp at a time period inconsistent with when this color lining is typically encountered. The collar tabs, although not impossible, are certainly a bit atypical in their manufacture. And finally, there are a number of wear/lack of wear and soiling points that are of concern.

Technically the example is Very Well executed from a manufacturer's standpoint; and therein lies the danger (for me at least).

I would not be surprised that if more detailed pictures were available this list would be expanded.

I hope that this might be of some small help.

Regards,
Bryon

Thank you and I am comfortable with that level of detail and the areas mentioned....meaning at least several of those points also concern me. I also agree with you on the technical execution quality if it is a fake.

[90th Light]

The lining is very atypical and unlike anything that I have encountered in a Heer wraparound.

Bryon

Is this not the type of black lining material that one can encounter in an SS wrap or on the reverse of the tongue of SS shoulder boards made in the period 1943-1944 ???

Thus this material did exist in various grades from fine to course and was being used as a lining fabric by the the Third Reich in the manufacturing of clothing before May 1945,

Chris

[djpool]

Hey Chris,

I'm jumping around between several threads that seem to have overlapping themes. Thank you for the kind words on my rough and I mean rough analysis of black lining materials. I think your estimate of 10% is probably high end.

However that isn't the real story in my mind. I've been looking at depot stamps etc for several years and theres much more to derived from looking at those stamps besides the way they looked. If you loook beyond the stamp you can identify the types of uniforms a depot stored/contracted and issued, the types of materials used in manufacturing uniforms for a particular depot and manufacturers associated with certain depots.

Not every depot handled a complete inventory of items. Widely issued items like work tunics etc were probably stored at each depot but specialized clothing may have been designated for only a select few depots. Don't forget the Depots contracted with approved vendors (generally in their area) and provided the raw materials. As to the black lining note that all the no brainer originals are dated 1944 and 4 of the 5 were from the same depot. The one Berlin wrap was blessed by the WAF members but I'd like to see some more from that depot. As a collector looking for a black lined wrap I'd stick to ones dated E 44 to be safe.

A few years ago I was assisted by a few collectors here in the U.S. and Europe when I was discussing the Grey Green denim wraps. The closest examples I could find to the grey green one were the mouse grey wraps. Using detailed pictures from most of the existing examples I was able to determine that the grey green/mouse grey fabrics were identical except for color, they were all contracted from the same depot, they were manufactured by the same firm, they used identical finishing materials etc. and that the sewing techniques were similar.

Anyway the point being a depot by depot analysis can yield a treasure trove of information beyond just how the stamp looked.

Jim

Is this not the type of black lining material that one can encounter in an SS wrap or on the reverse of the tongue of SS shoulder boards made in the period 1943-1944 ???

Thus this material did exist in various grades from fine to course and was being used as a lining fabric by the the Third Reich in the manufacturing of clothing before May 1945,

Hello Simon,

reading the pz. wrap thread which is still ongoing as I type this, a couple more panzer wraps with black lining have now also come to light. For example Bob Hritz yellow signal piped example. The percentage in the sample is now up to around 6%. This is of course based on a sample of convenience and we do not know how representative of the entire population of panzer wraps ever made or the margin of error.

Based however, on this logical and commendable investigation by Jim. My pick is that may be 10% of original WH panzer wraps had a black lining. Not huge, I agree.

In answering your original question. this confirms that black linings were used in some original panzer wraps and panzer caps ( plus shoulder boards )

The 2 panzer M43's pictured on this thread are excellent examples of 101% original panzer M43's made before May 1945 with black linings.

Best regards,

Chris <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

Is this not the type of black lining material that one can encounter in an SS wrap or on the reverse of the tongue of SS shoulder boards made in the period 1943-1944 ???

Thus this material did exist in various grades from fine to course and was being used as a lining fabric by the the Third Reich in the manufacturing of clothing before May 1945,

Chris

I think I have asked you this in the past (maybe on several occasions).

I will try again, please tell me and EVERYONE else reading this thread, how many Original Heer wraparounds you have examined?

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

I think I have asked you this in the past (maybe on several occasions).

I will try again, please tell me and EVERYONE else reading this thread, how many Original Heer wraparounds you have examined?

B. N. Singer

Hello Byron,

probably no where near the number that Peter von Lukacs has. My question is sincere but I will leave it at that rather than risk upsetting you further.

Regards,

Chris

[90th Light]

Hey Chris,

I'm jumping around between several threads that seem to have overlapping themes. Thank you for the kind words on my rough and I mean rough analysis of black lining materials. I think your estimate of 10% is probably high end.

However that isn't the real story in my mind. I've been looking at depot stamps etc for several years and theres much more to derived from looking at those stamps besides the way they looked. If you loook beyond the stamp you can identify the types of uniforms a depot stored/contracted and issued, the types of materials used in manufacturing uniforms for a particular depot and manufacturers associated with certain depots.

Not every depot handled a complete inventory of items. Widely issued items like work tunics etc were probably stored at each depot but specialized clothing may have been designated for only a select few depots. Don't forget the Depots contracted with approved vendors (generally in their area) and provided the raw materials. As to the black lining note that all the no brainer originals are dated 1944 and 4 of the 5 were from the same depot. The one Berlin wrap was blessed by the WAF members but I'd like to see some more from that depot. As a collector looking for a black lined wrap I'd stick to ones dated E 44 to be safe.

A few years ago I was assisted by a few collectors here in the U.S. and Europe when I was discussing the Grey Green denim wraps. The closest examples I could find to the grey green one were the mouse grey wraps. Using detailed pictures from most of the existing examples I was able to determine that the grey green/mouse grey fabrics were identical except for color, they were all contracted from the same depot, they were manufactured by the same firm, they used identical finishing materials etc. and that the sewing techniques were similar.

Anyway the point being a depot by depot analysis can yield a treasure trove of information beyond just how the stamp looked.

Jim

Thank you Jim,

again good points and observations of what was happening at the time,

Chris