Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Willi Z.]

Jim,

Reason goes out the window the minute my name gets attached to any unusual panzer item.

You know what is really funny. Everyone just assumes I think the wrap is original...because I said it looked "believable." The sides form up...and the bullies remain in control as they hold all the cards over who gets suspended, expelled, or posts edited/removed for proper, or inappropriate content respectively.

I suppose I will get suspended or expelled for implying that certain people are bullies on the forum. Of course they and their allies don't see it that way...bullies never do. There are no cliques on this forum!!!

CLIQUE: Clique, in the social sciences, is a term used to describe a group of 2 to 12 (averaging 5 or 6) “people who interact with each other more regularly and intensely than others in the same setting.”

[1] Cliques are distinguished from "crowds" in that their members interact with one another . Crowds, on the other hand, are defined by reputation. Although the word 'clique' or 'cliquey' is often used in day-to-day conversation to describe relational aggression or snarky, gossipy behavior of groups of socially dominant teenage girls ('queen bees') this is not scientifically accurate. Interacting with cliques is part of normative social development regardless of gender, ethnicity, or “popularity.” Although cliques are most commonly studied during adolescence and middle childhood, they exist in all age groups, especially military forums.

If the roles were reversed...they be screaming bloody murder.

Lets try it and see!

Richard

You mean you didn't really mean this on the other thread?

"Incredibly rare wrap with this special pz pioneer type of piping. But it is in fact the only type of piping I would accept on a panzer pioneer wrap with piped collar. The black/white twist piping is readily available and way too easy to add to an existing wrap. This type of piping is not readily available as far as I know, and a wrap would have to be disassembled, and regular wool piping could not be replaced by this type without being easily identified.

In addition this is a known maker. No depot mark or date...which I would expect, as this would have to have been a special order most likely factory/maker direct. From the photos I don't see any problems. I would enjoy a hands on as would most panzer collectors. This is only the second one with a panzer pioneer piped collar that I find believable, and all others I have seen with this type piping were outright reproductions. Appears to have a nice black linen lining.

Quite rare to say the least...ten times more rare compared with other wraps on the wrap rarity scale...and then add the "Der Spiess" rank.

Richard"

And now you are calling moderators bullies?
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[OSS]

Here is a Panzer Pionier with the only type of piped collar I have ever seen in period photos:

[kammo man]

Whats the name of that Queen song they play at the basketball games ?

[Gene]

Does Hasse's wrapper have an Umlaut over the "o" in Wohlgemuth? It looks like there is a a faint one in the last pic.

[Zauberflöte]

Sir, I might agree with you if this wrap was being "presented" as an issue/contract wrap. Forgetting the piping for a moment, there are a number of things that I too find "wrong" with it in that context, that is as a contract wrap.

Some are suggesting that this is a private purchase wrap that is actually a non contract "build". I specify that because plenty of contracted items were also private purchased by officers and NCOs for there own use and then often greatly modified to clean up the 'issue" look or fit of the item. The lack of a depot letter and date stamp would support this claim that this wrap never was in the supply system and therefore not subject to the specs of a contracted wrap.

If that is true I see nothing about the wrap from the photos that would tell me that it is fake. On the other hand nothing is showing me that it is original either.

I can not say that I have ever seen (that I recall) a custom made wrap or custom anything else that followed the details of the issue counterpart as close as this one does...down to size stampings no less...

At this point I am open to learn about this maker and maybe see more wraps posted with this name. I am also open to see if any evidence is found at least by me or for me....probably others already know...that shows that these "one off" issue looking wraps were offered for private sales outside the Heer supply system.

This conclusion would be one of the most wise up until now. The private made part could perhaps also explain the fact that the tabs appear to be made of the same cloth?

Focusing on the black lining is indeed meaningless in my opinion. There is no question that black was used in Heer linings on a larger scale than might be suggested. I for one have shown a original in this thread that will stand any test and have seen others in advanced collections as well.

Indeed truly nice detective work Naxos!

[Glenn McInnes]

The truth is sometimes items got into the Depot system without being Depot stamped.

Most commercially manufactured/PRIVATE PURCHASE clothing is not stamped in this manner. It was made to fit the wearer why size it? I think it was a requirement from the contracting agency. I've handled a lot of tailored tunics over the years and I have never seen a private purchase piece stamped like this.

I agree,in fact here are the markings in 2 (one NCO) unaltered Heer 4 pockets (M-40/41-M42) that are factory produced.I know of others as well marked similar that were issued and worn.


The notion that the lack of depot/date stamp means private purchase is just grasping at straws.IMO


"Private purchase" is also often used to try and explain away a fake.



Glenn

[Glenn McInnes]

/

[B. N. Singer]

...The private made part could perhaps also explain the fact that the tabs appear to be made of the same cloth?

This is common for factory produced wraparounds, IMO

Your posted jacket is interesting, is there any chance of posting a picture of the "bias material" in the shoulders?

B. N. Singer

[Zauberflöte]

...

Your posted jacket is interesting, is there any chance of posting a picture of the "bias material" in the shoulders?

B. N. Singer

I would be happy to do so but currently I have no access to the wrap/i.e. ability to photograph. I can tell you that the bias material is black. Also of interest is the fact that both belt support straps are made from different colored black material.

As an additional note I can claim that this is not a dyed-black field grey wrap as I believe sometimes occurred in the early collecting years.

Best

F.

[B. N. Singer]

... I can tell you that the bias material is black. Also of interest is the fact that both belt support straps are made from different colored black material.

As an additional note I can claim that this is not a dyed-black..

Best

F.

Sir, that the item had been dyed was my initial thought when viewing your picture.

Regards,
B. N. singer

[Zauberflöte]

Sir, that the item had been dyed was my initial thought when viewing your picture.

Regards,
B. N. singer

I can imagine since this is difficult to judge from the posted picture, but again it is most certainly not. For example the thread that is used is discolored on the exposed parts and the wear of the jacket shows natural aging.

[Langemark]

I can imagine since this is difficult to judge from the posted picture, but again it is most certainly not. For example the thread that is used is discolored on the exposed parts and the wear of the jacket shows natural aging.

Simply look if the inside front burlap stiffener is still in its original cream color and not black dyed. Or do you maybe call that the "bias" ?

Mark

[A c h t u n g !]

Simply look if the inside front burlap stiffener is still in its original cream color and not black dyed. Or do you maybe call that the "bias" ?

Mark

Yes "bias" = "burlap" and yes "black burlap" = wrap has been dyed black, sorry Zauberflöte there is no other option.

[Zauberflöte]

Yes "bias" = "burlap" and yes "black burlap" = wrap has been dyed black, sorry Zauberflöte there is no other option.

Trust me, it is not; do a search on the Forum and you will find more examples of original wraps with black bias, it is not common but it is possible.
Furthermore is my wrap not subject of this thread, by all means, let us not divert as so often happens.

Thank you.

[A c h t u n g !]

Trust me, it is not; do a search on the Forum and you will find more examples of original wraps with black bias, it is not common but it is possible.
Furthermore is my wrap not subject of this thread, by all means, let us not divert as so often happens.

Thank you.

Here is a link to an interesting thread about burlap materials. Colors vary from white to dark blue, gray, etc but no truly "black" as everything else on the wrap. http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=120151