Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[Zauberflöte]

...
Now what intrigates me is the following detail : there are 2 awards chest loops, presumed period applied of course, but no (at least visible) evidence of any ribbon appliation or loops for ribbon bar.
This lack is not consistent IMHO, as i doubt such a proeminent NCO, at this stage of the conflict, would not have been already distinguished by EKII while having at the same time 2 awards loops; for instance just for sports badge, or a wound badge, or a GAB or a PAB...

I know, this is an hypothesis, and it proves "nothing"...
Just another brick in the wall.


derka

Hi Derka,

As you mention yourself, these hypothetical conclusions could be dangerous IMHO. It is a common mistake I’ve seen made often that most surviving NCO/officer tunics should have multiple loops etc otherwise to be considered suspicious...? In fact this would rather be the other way around.

When you view period photos of a Spiess then in most cases he is not been awarded frontline combat awards at all but in most cases only KVK with swords etc. If you look in general you can even see as in late 43/44 f.e. W-SS officers and officer Anwärter (also in the crack divisions) – and so they must have had a substantial trackrecord – with sometimes only a woundbadge or sportbadge…
It is therefore very much possible that this Panz Pio. Spiess never had a EKII awarded (or wintermedal/ KVK II for that matter).

Another explanation could of course be that those ribbons have been removed post war..I’ve seen this happen before with other undisputed and for the rest untouched tunics.

F.

[Luca Ongaro]

I'll take the bait. I see nothing from the photos that I can say alarms me.

The eagle and the sewing look good to me. The backing has no knap nor has it ever as it has certainly not been worn off. The condition of the eagle, the thread and the fabric of the wrap look very consistant too me.

The same for me.

Original eagle applied in the correct way and indeed consistant with the wrap, the green wool is correct and is the same used in many LW M43 4 pocket uniforms.
That's all.

Honestly I understand if Richard will not open a new thread.

Bryon has made many, many calls on items from only one photo, now there's two. I do not understand why he refuses to do it now...except to possibly out another super fake?

Now I'm not taking the bait. The same people (minus OSS) have been doing this same thing to me for years. I guess they have never heard of screen shots, just in case anything I say (write) gets altered.

Richard

Luca

[B. N. Singer]

Honestly I understand if Richard will not open a new thread.


Luca

I could not agree more Mr. Ongaro.

B. N. Singer

[Luca Ongaro]

I could not agree more Mr. Ongaro.

B. N. Singer

Sorry but I don't understand
Luca

[B. N. Singer]

Sorry but I don't understand
Luca

Please forgive me, for being so Obscure Mr. Ongaro.

B. N. Singer

[Ohlau]

Simply, Mister Singer says wrap is a fake

[derka]

Hi Derka,

As you mention yourself, these hypothetical conclusions could be dangerous IMHO. It is a common mistake I’ve seen made often that most surviving NCO/officer tunics should have multiple loops etc otherwise to be considered suspicious...? In fact this would rather be the other way around.

When you view period photos of a Spiess then in most cases he is not been awarded frontline combat awards at all but in most cases only KVK with swords etc. If you look in general you can even see as in late 43/44 f.e. W-SS officers and officer Anwärter (also in the crack divisions) – and so they must have had a substantial trackrecord – with sometimes only a woundbadge or sportbadge…
It is therefore very much possible that this Panz Pio. Spiess never had a EKII awarded (or wintermedal/ KVK II for that matter).

Another explanation could of course be that those ribbons have been removed post war..I’ve seen this happen before with other undisputed and for the rest untouched tunics.

F.

Well, your observations are certainly correct in general, even in classical elite combat units, but here it is realy a specific kind of unit.

1) A panzerpioniere Spiess Oberfelwebel in late 1943/44 without any EKII, KVKII or winter medal won, but with 2 loops for "minor" awards, canno't be compared with an unexperienced NCO officer Anwärter or a young Leutnant directly comming from school.
The Spiess function in a highly specialized combat Kp. like pzpio. required an experienced senior NCO with training/formation : if he was on charge only of supply tasks in the kp., ie. not serving in combat armored vehicles/tanks, then he would not have a black "private" wrap just to show off when returning at home.

2) It is suposed to be a "home" walking out or rear duty service wrap, not a real combat wrap.
On real combat wraps used in armored vehicles/tanks duty, you can often see that awards and ribbon were not worn, mainly to avoid to alter or loose them in combat conditions inside vehicles;
But on a wrap like this one, ie alledged privatly ordered, i think all awards/insignias should be still present today, particulary if eagle and tk's have not been removed as they are among the most "agressive" insignias (like runes on SS tunics) comparing with ribbon or ribbon bar.

But again just my point of wiew.
derka

[Zauberflöte]

Well, your observations are certainly correct in general, even in classical elite combat units, but here it is realy a specific kind of unit.

1) A panzerpioniere Spiess Oberfelwebel in late 1943/44 without any EKII, KVKII or winter medal won, but with 2 loops for "minor" awards, canno't be compared with an unexperienced NCO officer Anwärter or a young Leutnant directly comming from school.
The Spiess function in a highly specialized combat Kp. like pzpio. required an experienced senior NCO with training/formation : if he was on charge only of supply tasks in the kp., ie. not serving in combat armored vehicles/tanks, then he would not have a black "private" wrap just to show off when returning at home.

2) It is suposed to be a "home" walking out or rear duty service wrap, not a real combat wrap.
On real combat wraps used in armored vehicles/tanks duty, you can often see that awards and ribbon were not worn, mainly to avoid to alter or loose them in combat conditions inside vehicles;
But on a wrap like this one, ie alledged privatly ordered, i think all awards/insignias should be still present today, particulary if eagle and tk's have not been removed as they are among the most "agressive" insignias (like runes on SS tunics) comparing with ribbon or ribbon bar.

But again just my point of wiew.
derka

Your points noted Derka, and they are of course true in themselves but my reply did not - and maybe I should have been more clear- refer to "..unexperienced NCO officer Anwärter or a young Leutnant directly coming from school"...as period photo's proof.
Just felt to add a small nuance to your initial post, but it remains guessing I'm aware of that and again, I fully understand your observations.

F.

[John Hodgin]

the green wool is the same used in many LW M43 4 pocket uniforms.
Luca

Well, not really exactly the same.

[OSS]

Well, not really exactly the same.

Agreed, I have found it a characteristic of several of the LW Stug. wrappers presently on the market that they are made of what appears to be period-woven Feldgrau 44 (of the type seen in M-44 Heer tunics). I suppose "they" thought that LW wrappers were the most profitable use for this material.

[Luca Ongaro]

Please forgive me, for being so Obscure Mr. Ongaro.

B. N. Singer

I continue to not understand, sorry but the wrap you showed is not that one posted by Richard.
Luca

[John Pic]

or because the correct color and type fabric for luftwaffe was not available to them to make a perfect example.

[Luca Ongaro]

Simply, Mister Singer says wrap is a fake

I had no doubts.
Luca

[Luca Ongaro]

Well, not really exactly the same.

You can compare it here, looks the same to me.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=147690

Luca

[Luca Ongaro]

Please forgive me, for being so Obscure Mr. Ongaro.

B. N. Singer

Well, I note we have another fake in your opinion

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=454301

Sorry but the wool and lining have nothing in common with the LW wrap posted by Richard.

Luca