Panzer Pioneer Black Wrapper II

[B. N. Singer]

...It was by George's introduction that I met Bryon 12 years ago...

Geez, has it been that long Willi? Collecting has sure gotten more dangerous and convoluted in that time.

Best to you Sir,
PS, Lawd, I can just hear Yosemite Sam now, “dog pile on the rabbit”!!

[John Huff]

If you can't hear it, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcqdzJ-nnpE

[Zauberflöte]

With so many burning arrows shot from all directions; the wagon is deemed to explode any time now.

I think it is fair to say that we have reached the point that for most of us the learning curve of this thread is descending and at least lost its entertaining value.

I have no doubt what so ever that all key-contesters in this thread have a huge amount of knowledge and IMHO it would be best that either they share it and hold their tonques on the personal front. (For what it is worth I always enjoy your unconventional view on items Richard also since I know it’s backed up with years in the field).

Just like in politics it is normal to share sides with those that express and mirror the same opinions but as we say in the Netherlands; sometimes it is better to practice the Polder Model (=consensus policy ).

F.

[Glenn McInnes]

I wonder why the owner of the PZ. PI. wrap that started this thread Hasse.M has been suspended.
Luca

It is really no ones business as to why anyone is suspended but it is always for a good reason....In this case however it was for publicly accusing respected members of faking stuff and certain Moderators profiting from the sales...He was lucky it was not permanent.



Thanks for the amusing post Richard P..I enjoyed that over my morning coffee.... Obviously none of your friends collect or know anything about wrappers.



Now back to the wrappers please or this one will be closed.





Glenn

[Mike Davis]

Another member of the Cabal Against Truth and Justice checking in. I have done my best to monitor this most entertaining thread from abroad and must say I admire the craft and energy of the 'other side'. It must be a tremendous effort to make and save screen shots from years gone by, to write such tremendous volumes and such. I am truly hoping that these efforts will be accompanied by the posting of additional detailed photos, of the new Luftwaffe wrap, for instance. Keep up the good work, we are surely entertained.

[jacquesf]

It is clear from this thread and many other on the WAF that there are two mainstream collectors philosophies. Firstly the Textbook approach where items are evaluated against an accepted and known set of criteria. This is approach is based on a narrow and more factual approach. The second is a" Laissez Faire " approach where a more relaxed and wider interpretation is given to items. This is more speculative and allow for different interpretation. This is put very simply.

Where do I stand as a collector who does not have the experience nor the required access in the various field and items of collecting to aquire the required knowledge base to collect safely? ( I guess the majority of collectors are in this position)

To me it is all about risk managment. Can I afford to be speculative about items I buy, hoping that they are OK, no I cannot. If I stick to the first" textbook" approack is my risk lower, yes, greatly so. Will I miss out on a item that might be original, yes, but the risk of that is tiny compared to the risk of buying a fake. Can you have a Laissez faire approach on cheaper, more common items, yes, because the financial risk is much smaller, but even then it is in my interest to stick to the first approach. It is just much safer.

Which approach benefit the fakers and fraudsters active in the hobby, well that is quite obvious. They need the "laissez faire" approach to survive. This approach has it value as it stimulates debate and provide additional valuable information (positive or negative) that can only be in the interest of the hobby. However where I come from, it is to risky for me personally.

In the end it is up to each collector to decide how he is going to approach this hobby and it is a personal choice. Authenticating and debating items based on these personal preferences rather than just stating factual opinions, is just a waste of time. Somewhat like arguing about religion or politics.

When the information,( for both sides and in whatever format) is out in the open, each collector should make up his own mind, based on an analysis of the information and scource. It all boils down to personal risk management and collecting philosophy, based on as much information as possible. Jacques

Ps in view of this, threads like this has great value for me.

[Mike Davis]

Well reasoned Jacques

[Willi Z.]

It is clear from this thread and many other on the WAF that there are two mainstream collectors philosophies. Firstly the Textbook approach where items are evaluated against an accepted and known set of criteria. This is approach is based on a narrow and more factual approach. The second is a" Laissez Faire " approach where a more relaxed and wider interpretation is given to items. This is more speculative and allow for different interpretation. This is put very simply.

Where do I stand as a collector who does not have the experience nor the required access in the various field and items of collecting to aquire the required knowledge base to collect safely?

To me it is all about risk managment. Can I afford to be speculative about items I buy, hoping that they are OK, no I cannot. If I stick to the first" textbook" approack is my risk lower, yes, greatly so. Will I miss out on a item that might be original, yes, but the risk of that is tiny compared to the risk of buying a fake. Can you have a Laissez faire approach on cheaper, more common items, yes, because the financial risk is much smaller, but even then it is in my interest to stick to the first approach. It is just much safer.

Which approach benefit the fakers and fraudsters active in the hobby, well that is quite obvious. They need the "laissez faire" approach to survive. This approach has it value as it stimulates debate and provide additional valuable information (positive or negative) that can only be in the interest of the hobby. However where I come from, it is to risky for me personally.

In the end it is up to each collector to decide how he is going to approach this hobby and it is a personal choice. Authenticating and debating items based on these personal preferences rather than just stating factual opinions, is just a waste of time. Somewhat like arguing about religion or politics.

When the information,( for both sides and in whatever format) is out in the open, each collector should make up his own mind, based on an analysis of the information and scource. It all boils down to personal risk management and collecting philosophy, based on as much information as possible. Jacques

Ps in view of this, threads like this has great value for me.

Well-said!

[Glenn McInnes]

I know one person who got suspended for asking Singer if he owned a particular hat that was sold to Warelics. All the threads were erased, that person suspended and accused of lying about Singer. I have screen shots of the questions and replies.

Actually this could not be further from the truth (and I can find the replies)

This person was suspended for publicly accusing Mr Singer of selling an obviously fake hat to a dealer..A hat that Mr Singer had never owned and had never seen.

Still not sure why he posted those comments but in my world it is called "playing dirty" (just like when members post links to a certain W-SS wrapper thread at an attempt to discredit someones knowledge) and these types of comments will not be tolerated here.





Glenn

[Zauberflöte]

Very true I think Jacques your post #596; and I would even like to add an third approach; the 'one-looker' approach.

Items in this category, either standard/textbook or “laisssez faire”, in most cases no brain needs to be cracked or discussion threads to be opened. IMO these are the very best items to collect since these are the ones that are most satisfying in the end and probably most (financial) resistant in the continuously evolving fakers world.

But without being pretentious, it is IMO true that some of us have the one-looker view, some need to handle or view a lot of garments first, and unfortunately some of us never really will achieve the capability…

[B. N. Singer]

...

Well...if my stug wrap is fake, so is Singer's and Gene's black HG wraps and any other wraps marked #344. I am still amazed you guys really can't tell this stuff apart, and must throw them all in one "FAKE" basket to cover your ineptitude.

Richard

Jacques, admirably, tried to defuse the heated tone of this thread.

I will do my part as well so that this thread is not terminated.

Although I would MUCH PREFER a new thread to be started.

As a comparison to the one shown in post #517, page #6 here is MY 344 marked HG Pz wraparound, (which may even be pictured in an upcoming book on wraparounds).

Richard, are you willing to show more detailed pictures of your example for further scrutiny? (all who would like that, please "raise their hands").

All interested parties, please reference this new thread, http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=596973

Regards to ALL participants,

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

Jacques, admirably, tried to defuse the heated tone of this thread.

I will do my part as well so that this thread is not terminated.

Although I would MUCH PREFER a new thread to be started.

As a comparison to the one shown in post #517, page #6 here is MY 344 marked HG Pz wraparound, (which may even be pictured in an upcoming book on wraparounds).

Richard, are you willing to show more detailed pictures of your example for further scrutiny? (all who would like that, please "raise their hands").

Regards to ALL participants,

B. N. Singer

Bryon,

Would it be possible for you to start a new thread on the subject? This thread has ventured too far off from the subject Pz Pi wrapper .




Thanks,
Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Bryon,

Would it be possible for you to start a new thread on the subject? This thread has ventured too far off from the subject Pz Pi wrapper .




Thanks,
Glenn

Of course Glenn; but I do not know how.

And I believe it is important for people to note the comparison.

Best,
Bryon

[OSS]

I think the idea of a new thread for the LW wrappers under suspicion is a good idea. There is perhaps more, however, to be said about the Pz. Pion. wrapper. I would like to discuss more about the use of black linings which seem to be common in fakes yet quite unusual in originals. DJPool created a comparison of white stampings earlier in the thread to which I would like to submit another example from an earlier thread:

[OSS]

The newly submitted markings are from a jacket that was entered as evidence in the famous CG/HG thread. Again it is a super rare and sexy piped collar wrapper with a black lining, in this case a '36 dated Panzerartillerie black wrapper, even harder to believe than the Pz. Pion. wrapper (particularly because the German Army possessed no self-propelled artillery in 1936):